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BillyMac Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:46pm

Headphones ???
 
Headphones worn by a player in the pregame warm-up layup lines.

Legal, or illegal?

I say illegal.

Headphones are not appropriate equipment for the game of basketball.

3-5-1: The referee shall not permit any team member to wear equipment or apparel which, in his/her judgment, is dangerous or confusing to other players or is not appropriate.

3-5-4-E: Head decorations and headwear, except those specified above, are prohibited.

3.5 SITUATION A RULING: The third criterion provides that equipment used must be appropriate for basketball and not be confusing.

Comments?

Rob1968 Thu Dec 22, 2016 02:12am

I tell them to remove the headphones, during warm-ups. It's easily understood as a safety issue.
I also tell the players to tuck in their jersey, remove rings, earrings, necklaces, bracelets, etc. The liability coverage under our contract is void if we don't follow the prescribed responsibilities we incur as our part of that agreement.

Nevadaref Thu Dec 22, 2016 05:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 995520)
Headphones worn by a player in the pregame warm-up layup lines.

Legal, or illegal?

I say illegal.

Headphones are not appropriate equipment for the game of basketball.

3-5-1: The referee shall not permit any team member to wear equipment or apparel which, in his/her judgment, is dangerous or confusing to other players or is not appropriate.

3-5-4-E: Head decorations and headwear, except those specified above, are prohibited.

3.5 SITUATION A RULING: The third criterion provides that equipment used must be appropriate for basketball and not be confusing.

Comments?

Illegal. If the item cannot be worn during the game, then it cannot be worn during the warm-up time.

BillyMac Thu Dec 22, 2016 07:24am

Citation Please ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 995525)
Illegal. If the item cannot be worn during the game, then it cannot be worn during the warm-up time.

Warm-up jacket/jersey/top covering player's jersey number?

bob jenkins Thu Dec 22, 2016 08:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob1968 (Post 995524)
I also tell the players to tuck in their jersey,

overkill, imo

Rob1968 Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 995528)
overkill, imo

It's what our supervisor/assigners want . . . when in Rome . . . :)

MD Longhorn Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 995528)
overkill, imo

Funny... I thought he was being sarcastic, and expected his list to end with telling the players that we're playing the black line all the way around.

Rich Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 995546)
Funny... I thought he was being sarcastic, and expected his list to end with telling the players that we're playing the black line all the way around.

Blue talk to blue, white talk to white....

UNIgiantslayers Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:02am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 995546)
Funny... I thought he was being sarcastic, and expected his list to end with telling the players that we're playing the black line all the way around.

As long as the speaking captain knows that, we're good in my game.

Adam Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 995549)
Blue talk to blue, white talk to white....

Let me explain the correctable error procedures.

Rich Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 995552)
Let me explain the correctable error procedures.

Listen to us -- we'll be talking you out of situations early...

Adam Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 995553)
Listen to us -- we'll be talking you out of situations early...

(insert lame joke here)

VaTerp Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:17am

This is one I'm probably leaving alone unless I'm instructed otherwise.

As a coach I would not allow it but this is not something I want to deal with unless necessary.

Welpe Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 995553)
Listen to us -- we'll be talking you out of situations early...

Don't forget the classic "Play defense with your feet, not your hands."

Adam Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 995559)
Don't forget the classic "Play defense with your feet, not your hands."

Hand checking is a POE this year, so we'll be enforcing that today.

BlueDevilRef Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:52pm

Hahaha. So, what do y'all jokers say at a pregame?
I think it's a waste of time and a completely archaic tradition that we should abolish. But that's just me.

UNIgiantslayers Thu Dec 22, 2016 01:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef (Post 995565)
Hahaha. So, what do y'all jokers say at a pregame?
I think it's a waste of time and a completely archaic tradition that we should abolish. But that's just me.

"IHSAA requires us to emphasize sportsmanship tonight. You guys know who your hotheads are, get to them before we do or it will cost your team two shots. Have a good game. Coaches, stay for a second."

"Coaches, all players legally equipped? Okay, first horn ends the timeout, second horn we're ready for play. Have a good game."

Raymond Thu Dec 22, 2016 02:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef (Post 995565)
Hahaha. So, what do y'all jokers say at a pregame?
I think it's a waste of time and a completely archaic tradition that we should abolish. But that's just me.

HS: "We tolerate no foolishness. Sportsmanship. Do not touch the free throw shooters".

College: "We're all adults here, we expect you conduct yourselves as such. If you have a question ask us respectfully. Sportsmanship".

Adam Thu Dec 22, 2016 03:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef (Post 995565)
Hahaha. So, what do y'all jokers say at a pregame?
I think it's a waste of time and a completely archaic tradition that we should abolish. But that's just me.

"Take care of your knuckleheads so we don't have to."

Rich Thu Dec 22, 2016 06:51pm

"Hi, I'm Mr. MyLastName and I'll be your referee tonight...."

BlueDevilRef Thu Dec 22, 2016 07:31pm

Headphones ???
 
Richard MyLastName.....you of Swedish descent?

Rob1968 Fri Dec 23, 2016 01:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 995525)
Illegal. If the item cannot be worn during the game, then it cannot be worn during the warm-up time.

This.

Now, concerning the Captains Meeting: Sportsmanship statement; put the ball in the hole, that's what makes it fun. DONE . . .
Except, my last two partners have been "that guy"! . . . listen to us, POE's, blah, blah, blah . . . And this, after I had told my partners in our dressing room that I don't talk about all of that! In one instance, he went on for over a minute. I kept hoping he'd notice me, looking off into space! If I weren't bald already, I'd pull my hair out!

Nevadaref Fri Dec 23, 2016 02:16am

Standard Captains speech = respect each other, respect us, and respect the game.
Added question if I'm feeling goofy: do you have any freshmen on your team?
After answer of yes: ok, don't let them *#% up the game.
After answer of no: good, then no one will }€|* up this game.

AremRed Fri Dec 23, 2016 02:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 995525)
Illegal. If the item cannot be worn during the game, then it cannot be worn during the warm-up time.

Rule reference?

Nevadaref Fri Dec 23, 2016 06:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 995611)
Rule reference?

The ruling from the NFHS on pregame warm-up items was made several years ago. I will have to look if it is in the Case Book or made it into the rules as an editorial change.

BillyMac Fri Dec 23, 2016 07:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob1968 (Post 995609)
... concerning the Captains Meeting ...

I pulled tis off my hard drive. It's several years old:

The National High School Federation and your state association require officials to enforce sportsmanship rules. High school athletics emphasize positive values. All of us have worked hard to create a sense of teamwork, respect, responsibility and perspective. We remind you that we expect good behavior and will quickly penalize misconduct. We encourage and appreciate your help. Let the competition reflect mutual respect among participants and officials. Coaches please certify that your players are legally equipped and uniformed according the NFHS rules. Good luck and have a great contest! (New Jersey State Interscholastic Athletic Association, Kentucky High School Athletic Association)

"PIAA requires all registered sports' officials to enforce the sportsmanship rules for coaches and contestants. Actions meant to demean opposing contestants, teams, spectators and officials are not in the highest ideals of interscholastic education and will not be tolerated. Let today's contest reflect mutual respect. Coaches please certify to the contest official(s) that your players are legally equipped and uniformed according to NFHS rules and PIAA adoptions. Good luck in today's contest." (Pennsylvania Interscholastic Athletic Association)

To captains: The FHSAA requires officials to enforce all rules regarding unsportsmanlike conduct by players and coaches. Violators will be ejected. It is strongly suggested that you remind your teammates and coaches of this policy. Additionally, this is a simple reminder that jewelry is not allowed, and jerseys must be tucked in during play if they are designed to be worn in. To coaches: Coaches, do you certify that your players are properly equipped and will demonstrate sportsmanlike behavior during today’s contest? (Florida High School Activities Association)

From the NFHS Rulebook: The referee shall: Verify with the head coach, prior to each contest, that his/her team
member’s uniforms and equipment are legal and will be worn properly, and that
all participants will exhibit proper sporting behavior throughout the contest.


Mine: Players properly equipped, Players wearing uniforms properly, Practice good sportsmanship.

LRZ Fri Dec 23, 2016 08:13am

In PA, we are required to read a sportsmanship/uniform statement (see Billy Mac's post, #26); I recite it, then, "Any questions? OK, have a good game and have fun."

BlueDevilRef Fri Dec 23, 2016 08:20am

Yikes billy. Feel sorry for anyone who has to perform a recital before a game.

Mine: captains take care of your teams and let's be good sports. Put the ball in the hole, it makes it fun for all of us. Good luck.
And before Christmas, I'll say "remember fellas/ladies, Santa Claus is watching. Let's stay on the nice list."

Rich Fri Dec 23, 2016 09:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob1968 (Post 995609)
This.



Now, concerning the Captains Meeting: Sportsmanship statement; put the ball in the hole, that's what makes it fun. DONE . . .

Except, my last two partners have been "that guy"! . . . listen to us, POE's, blah, blah, blah . . . And this, after I had told my partners in our dressing room that I don't talk about all of that! In one instance, he went on for over a minute. I kept hoping he'd notice me, looking off into space! If I weren't bald already, I'd pull my hair out!



In our games, the umpires don't usually stay for the meeting. Bring our captains, shake the other teams' captains' hands, and go back to our warmup positions.

That way if the R is "That Guy" I don't have to hear it.

Rob1968 Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 995617)
In our games, the umpires don't usually stay for the meeting. Bring our captains, shake the other teams' captains' hands, and go back to our warmup positions.

That way if the R is "That Guy" I don't have to hear it.

Oh, don't I wish it were so in our area!:)

scrounge Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob1968 (Post 995609)
This.

Now, concerning the Captains Meeting: Sportsmanship statement; put the ball in the hole, that's what makes it fun. DONE . . .
Except, my last two partners have been "that guy"! . . . listen to us, POE's, blah, blah, blah . . . And this, after I had told my partners in our dressing room that I don't talk about all of that! In one instance, he went on for over a minute. I kept hoping he'd notice me, looking off into space! If I weren't bald already, I'd pull my hair out!

I had an all timer last week. Dude was chatty in pre-game, lots of words about nothing at all, so I guess I should have seen it coming. Volunteers to be the R. He and the third guy are similar, just small talking about all manner of nonsense as we got dressed.

So we get out there about 20 mins prior. He says let's get the captains at 15 mins, which is fine (girls JV btw). Right at 15:00 he makes eye contact with us and we beckon the captains from each side.

They gather pretty quick as they were stretching, so I'd say we start the conference at about 14:40 or so. I'm not exactly sure, but close enough. Indeed, we start with the infamous 'black line all around', but that's just the beginning of the warmup of the great oratory to follow. It was a classic, play with your feet not your hands, listen to us we'll try to talk you out, the POEs about handchecking from last year (half of these girls probably weren't even playing last year, but whatever) are still in effect. If I had a pre-game bull##% bingo board, I would have cashed out in the first minute.

But wait, there's more. We went into a detailed explanation of the new rule about a violation if you enter the free throw shooter half circle. And not only the R got to chime in, but our other chatty cathy partner had words of wisdom on this too. The nuances of foul if you contact vs violation if you just cross were analyzed and contrasted. The girls were giving it all the attention you'd expect 16 yr old girls to give on a lecture about, say, accounting principles or something.

Other items I learned in this soliloquy were the speaking captain's name (it was Bethany), her number - because of course the R had her raise her warmup shirt to reveal the number, the fact that the R's daughter went to school just nearby their school too - but she didn't play basketball. Also, the blonde mom in the 3rd row had a really cute sweater and great curves - no, wait, that was me as I drifting off into la la land. I'm sure there were other fantastic points made but I found myself surrounded by a fog of words, lazily hanging in the air like smoke from a windless July 4th fireworks display.

We broke this interminable huddle at 11:26 left on the clock. OVER THREE FREAKIN' MINUTES OF THIS!!

AremRed Sat Dec 24, 2016 01:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 995613)
The ruling from the NFHS on pregame warm-up items was made several years ago. I will have to look if it is in the Case Book or made it into the rules as an editorial change.

Yet another item not listed in the current year rulebook that we are supposed to enforce!

OKREF Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:19pm

Coaches and captains are required by our state to attend pregame conference

Rich Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrounge (Post 995622)
I had an all timer last week. Dude was chatty in pre-game, lots of words about nothing at all, so I guess I should have seen it coming. Volunteers to be the R. He and the third guy are similar, just small talking about all manner of nonsense as we got dressed.

So we get out there about 20 mins prior. He says let's get the captains at 15 mins, which is fine (girls JV btw). Right at 15:00 he makes eye contact with us and we beckon the captains from each side.

They gather pretty quick as they were stretching, so I'd say we start the conference at about 14:40 or so. I'm not exactly sure, but close enough. Indeed, we start with the infamous 'black line all around', but that's just the beginning of the warmup of the great oratory to follow. It was a classic, play with your feet not your hands, listen to us we'll try to talk you out, the POEs about handchecking from last year (half of these girls probably weren't even playing last year, but whatever) are still in effect. If I had a pre-game bull##% bingo board, I would have cashed out in the first minute.

But wait, there's more. We went into a detailed explanation of the new rule about a violation if you enter the free throw shooter half circle. And not only the R got to chime in, but our other chatty cathy partner had words of wisdom on this too. The nuances of foul if you contact vs violation if you just cross were analyzed and contrasted. The girls were giving it all the attention you'd expect 16 yr old girls to give on a lecture about, say, accounting principles or something.

Other items I learned in this soliloquy were the speaking captain's name (it was Bethany), her number - because of course the R had her raise her warmup shirt to reveal the number, the fact that the R's daughter went to school just nearby their school too - but she didn't play basketball. Also, the blonde mom in the 3rd row had a really cute sweater and great curves - no, wait, that was me as I drifting off into la la land. I'm sure there were other fantastic points made but I found myself surrounded by a fog of words, lazily hanging in the air like smoke from a windless July 4th fireworks display.

We broke this interminable huddle at 11:26 left on the clock. OVER THREE FREAKIN' MINUTES OF THIS!!



All that said, I ask to see the jerseys. Then I know for certain that we don't have both teams in white (mainly an issue in neutral site games) and I know what additional color is legal on the visiting team's headbands, etc.

That said, we get captains at 12 and I'm at the table before we reach 11:00.

AremRed Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:52pm

At a tournament yesterday and a ref was bragging about a game a couple weeks ago where he had the captains meeting, asked who the speaking captain was, asked to see their jersey number under their warmups, and they were not wearing jerseys under their warmups. He told the coach they were not legally equipped and made them stop the warmup and go back to the locker room to put on their jerseys.

Smh.

Rich Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 995641)
At a tournament yesterday and a ref was bragging about a game a couple weeks ago where he had the captains meeting, asked who the speaking captain was, asked to see their jersey number under their warmups, and they were not wearing warmups. He told the coach they were not legally equipped and made them stop the warmup and go back to the locker room to put on their jerseys.



Smh.


Well, that's a new one. Just when I thought I heard em all....

BillyMac Sat Dec 24, 2016 01:01pm

When's Visiting Day At The Prison ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 995641)
... the captains meeting, asked who the speaking captain was, asked to see their jersey number under their warmups, and they were not wearing warmups.

Was this a girls tournament?

AremRed Sat Dec 24, 2016 01:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 995644)
Was this a girls tournament?

They were not wearing jerseys with numbers under their warmups, to clarify.

That incident happened a couple weeks ago in a game, not sure if boys or girls.

The tournament yesterday was boys.

Camron Rust Sat Dec 24, 2016 02:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 995629)
Yet another item not listed in the current year rulebook that we are supposed to enforce!

If they detailed everything about how we are to call the game, the book wouldn't fit in your game bag.

AremRed Sat Dec 24, 2016 11:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 995648)
If they detailed everything about how we are to call the game, the book wouldn't fit in your game bag.

Well shit, at least publish some PDF memos or something. The only place I have seen that has past years Rules Interpretations and POE's is the sticky thread in this very forum.

As I have said before, as a new official how can I be expected to know all these past interpretations and POE's if they are not readily available??

BillyMac Sun Dec 25, 2016 09:12am

What's A Mother To Do ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 995654)
... as a new official how can I be expected to know all these past interpretations and POE's if they are not readily available??

Amen. A good example is the point of emphasis from a few years ago about elbow fouls above the shoulders; stationery/swinging/excessive swinging; player control/intentional/flagrant. That never made its way into the rulebook.

Freddy Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 995654)
Well shit, at least publish some PDF memos or something. The only place I have seen that has past years Rules Interpretations and POE's is the sticky thread in this very forum.

As I have said before, as a new official how can I be expected to know all these past interpretations and POE's if they are not readily available??


Gee, I wonder if we know anyone somewhat close to Indianapolis who could stop by the NFHS offices and lobby for the concept and arrange personally with those in charge in order to make it happen.
:rolleyes:

ODog Sun Dec 25, 2016 01:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrounge (Post 995622)
He and the third guy are similar, just small talking about all manner of nonsense as we got dressed ... (girls JV btw) ...

Three-whistle for JV girls?!

Rich Sun Dec 25, 2016 01:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ODog (Post 995659)
Three-whistle for JV girls?!

We work 3-whistle for JV Girls -- if one of the officials carries a spare in their pocket.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sun Dec 25, 2016 03:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 995660)
We work 3-whistle for JV Girls -- if one of the officials carries a spare in their pocket.


3-whistle for JV games??!! Oh how I envy you.

MTD, Sr.

bob jenkins Sun Dec 25, 2016 05:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark t. Denucci, sr. (Post 995662)
3-whistle for jv games??!! Oh how i envy you.

Mtd, sr.

rif.

AremRed Sun Dec 25, 2016 05:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ODog (Post 995659)
Three-whistle for JV girls?!

Yes, they need that extra official to to increase the Correct Call percentage on held ball plays. Those are tough as we all know.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sun Dec 25, 2016 05:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 995666)
Yes, they need that extra official to to increase the Correct Call percentage on held ball plays. Those are tough as we all know.


As an official who was an interpreter and instructional chairman here in Ohio I have long advocated for 3-whistle crews be used for both boys' and girl's JV games and even boys' FR games because it is stupid to expect young officials to make the jump from 2-whistle crews for JV games to 3-whistle crews for VAR games.

MTD, Sr.

scrounge Sun Dec 25, 2016 07:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 995662)
3-whistle for JV games??!! Oh how I envy you.

MTD, Sr.

Yea, we're pretty lucky here in Central Ohio in that most leagues are full 3 man even for freshman/JV. Don't really need it for girls JV but can't have it for boys without having it for girls. Only the city league and MS will have 2 man for subvarsity. It's great to have that development; on the flip side, our pay is the lowest among the three major metro areas in the state.

As an aside, is it the same in other areas where girls basketball is just drying up? Even in the wealthier suburbs, freshman girls teams are disappearing. It used to be common to have Fr/JV double headers even just a few years ago - now they seem to be a rare exception.


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