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-   -   Foul after the horn (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/101996-foul-after-horn.html)

johnsonboys03 Wed Dec 21, 2016 09:11am
Foul after the horn
 
A2 chases after a missed shot in the corner of the floor. Catches the ball and shoots a fade away 3 at the buzzer. A2 comes back to the floor and buzzer sounds to end the quarter (in this case the 3rd). B2 in attempt to block the shot land's on A2.

I would have a hard time calling a dead ball foul here. What would you all have in this situation?

deecee Wed Dec 21, 2016 09:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsonboys03 (Post 995442)
A2 chases after a missed shot in the corner of the floor. Catches the ball and shoots a fade away 3 at the buzzer. A2 comes back to the floor and buzzer sounds to end the quarter (in this case the 3rd). B2 in attempt to block the shot land's on A2.

I would have a hard time calling a dead ball foul here. What would you all have in this situation?
I would have to be there to answer that question.

johnsonboys03 Wed Dec 21, 2016 09:15am
I assumed I would get that answer. It is definitely a play that could have hundreds of different levels of contact, or amount of time after the horn, etc.

BigCat Wed Dec 21, 2016 09:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsonboys03 (Post 995442)
A2 chases after a missed shot in the corner of the floor. Catches the ball and shoots a fade away 3 at the buzzer. A2 comes back to the floor and buzzer sounds to end the quarter (in this case the 3rd). B2 in attempt to block the shot land's on A2.

I would have a hard time calling a dead ball foul here. What would you all have in this situation?
Is the ball dead? When does the ball become dead? Rule 6. I likely wouldnt need to be there to answer your question. If the try is in flight or still has chance to go in, the ball is not dead and the qtr is not over. If he lands on top of him after he returns to the floor you have a bonus situation.

If the try ended, had no chance to go in, the ball is dead (the airborne shooter already returned to the floor) then contact by b2 is ignored unless intentional or flagrant. You havnt described anything intentionalor flagrant.

johnsonboys03 Wed Dec 21, 2016 09:22am
The airborne shooter came back down to the floor after the time expired, so yes I believe it is.

SC Official Wed Dec 21, 2016 09:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsonboys03 (Post 995442)
A2 chases after a missed shot in the corner of the floor. Catches the ball and shoots a fade away 3 at the buzzer. A2 comes back to the floor and buzzer sounds to end the quarter (in this case the 3rd). B2 in attempt to block the shot land's on A2.

I would have a hard time calling a dead ball foul here. What would you all have in this situation?
When does a quarter end when the horn sounds with a try for goal is in flight?

bob jenkins Wed Dec 21, 2016 09:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsonboys03 (Post 995449)
The airborne shooter came back down to the floor after the time expired, so yes I believe it is.
"Time expiring" and "ball becomes dead" are not synonyms

johnsonboys03 Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:14am
The exceptions to rule 6-7-6 is the ball does Not become dead unroll the try or tap ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:

a. Occurs while a try or tap for afield goal is in flight.

johnsonboys03 Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 995448)
Is the ball dead? When does the ball become dead? Rule 6. I likely wouldnt need to be there to answer your question. If the try is in flight or still has chance to go in, the ball is not dead and the qtr is not over. If he lands on top of him after he returns to the floor you have a bonus situation.

If the try ended, had no chance to go in, the ball is dead (the airborne shooter already returned to the floor) then contact by b2 is ignored unless intentional or flagrant. You havnt described anything intentionalor flagrant.
Ok. The try had no chance of going in. The contact was not intentional. The contact was ignored.

So is this what you are saying?
If the try had a chance we should have called a common foul, which would in this case been the 5th team foul. We report the foul, no shots rewarded and the quarter is over.

BigCat Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsonboys03 (Post 995459)
Ok. The try had no chance of going in. The contact was not intentional. The contact was ignored.

So is this what you are saying?
If the try had a chance we should have called a common foul, which would in this case been the 5th team foul. We report the foul, no shots rewarded and the quarter is over.
One of ways try ends is if it is certain try be unsuccessful. If you were certain it was unsuccessful and the shooter returned to the floor, the qtr is over. Contact after that is ignored unless intentional or flagrant.

If the try had a chance (you are not CERTAIN that it will be unsuccessful) then the try has not ended and the qtr is not over. if b fouls A1 before the qtr ends then report the common foul. if it is only the 5th team foul qtr is over. next qtr starts with Arrow.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 995448)
Is the ball dead? When does the ball become dead? Rule 6. I likely wouldnt need to be there to answer your question. If the try is in flight or still has chance to go in, the ball is not dead and the qtr is not over. If he lands on top of him after he returns to the floor you have a bonus situation.

If the try ended, had no chance to go in, the ball is dead (the airborne shooter already returned to the floor) then contact by b2 is ignored unless intentional or flagrant. You havnt described anything intentional or flagrant.


Excellent and correct answer.

MTD, Sr.

johnsonboys03 Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:08am
Ok thank you Gentlemen.

BryanV21 Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:14am
If the shooter has not returned to the floor the foul on him would lead to free throws... right?

bob jenkins Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 995469)
If the shooter has not returned to the floor the foul on him would lead to free throws... right?

Just like any other foul on an airborne shooter...

BryanV21 Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 995475)
Just like any other foul on an airborne shooter...
I didn't read anyone say that, which is why I brought it up. Just that it would be the 5th team foul and we'd move on.

BigCat Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 995469)
If the shooter has not returned to the floor the foul on him would lead to free throws... right?
yes, he is an airborne shooter until he returns to the floor. If the shot was blocked into the 3rd row the try is over but since the shooter has not yet returned to the floor the qtr is not over. Airborne shooter is considered to be in act of shooting.

BryanV21 Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 995477)
yes, he is an airborne shooter until he returns to the floor. If the shot was blocked into the 3rd row the try is over but since the shooter has not yet returned to the floor the qtr is not over. Airborne shooter is considered to be in act of shooting.
Yes, that is what I'm saying.

Nobody has mentioned that if the shot had a chance to go in (meaning the ball is still live) the foul on the airborne shooter (assuming one was called) would result in one or two FTs (depending on if the try was good or not).

All that's been said is that if the try has a chance to go in the ball remains live, and therefore the foul can be called. However, the result of that foul has only been said to be the team's 5th foul... not that free throws could come into play.

bob jenkins Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 995478)
Yes, that is what I'm saying.

Nobody has mentioned that if the shot had a chance to go in (meaning the ball is still live) the foul on the airborne shooter (assuming one was called) would result in one or two FTs (depending on if the try was good or not).

All that's been said is that if the try has a chance to go in the ball remains live, and therefore the foul can be called. However, the result of that foul has only been said to be the team's 5th foul... not that free throws could come into play.
Because in the OP the shooter had landed -- making it a common foul.

if you change the play, you change the results.

BryanV21 Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 995480)
Because in the OP the shooter had landed -- making it a common foul.

if you change the play, you change the results.
I'm sorry, I read it wrong. I read it as the shooter landing on the defender... not the other way around.:(


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