Problem Player
 

I was an observer at a boy's varsity game last night between two rival schools. One player in particular was an issue for the crew the entire evening and it got me thinking about how to handle such a player and what I would've done had I been part of the crew. Prior to the jump ball while players and officials are getting into position to start, #2 WHITE is walking around and saying stuff like "you're came to our house to get whipped tonight!", "walking out losers tonight!" etc and clapping his hands and bobbing his head. U2 walks over to him and says something to him and #2 smiles and slaps U2 on the butt and gives him a thumbs up. Almost immediately from the start, #2 and #15 BLUE are going at each other pretty hard, fouls called appropriately, but it seems the two players are always saying something to one another. Crew warns them both.

Game progresses and now WHITE finds themselves down 10 in the 3rd quarter and the coach and fans are complaining about foul calls even though both teams are in the bonus. #2 gets fouled and has a 1 and 1 opportunity. The players are lined up and the lead signals 1 and 1. #2 as the Lead is doing this walks out of the semi-circle before the bounce of the ball. The Lead tells him to get back in and #2 decides to look over at the bench and wipe his hands on his jersey and basically ignore the Lead. The Lead again says 1 and 1 and walks up and puts the ball down on the free throw line. #2 steps forward and comes into the semi-circle and the Center calls the violation. The White team coach goes nuts and the Trail turns and tries to explain what happened. At the same time, #2 decides to go ahead and roll the ball toward the bench and waves off the Lead. The coach ends up with a warning and he sits down. The Center tries to say something to #2 but #2 walks away from him. He was not given a T at this point.

4th quarter, #2 drives to he basket and gets in a hard collision with his nemesis, #15 who correctly (IMO) gets called for a block. #2 is a little slow to get up but does and #15 gets up and smiles at #2 and claps his hands and then turns to walk away. As the official is heading to the table (who was the Lead on the free throw), #2 picks up the ball and tosses it, not a hard throw but still tosses it, and it hits #15 in the back. #15 now turns but teammates got a hold of #15 and #2 and keep them away from each other.

The official stops on his way to the table and issues a technical foul to #2 White for the toss of the ball. The coach goes nuts again and ends up getting stuck.

Blue wins the game by 18.

After the game, the crew was pretty upset by how the game ended with the technical and the overall attitude in the gym and with the players. As a crew, they discussed whether they should have given #2 a Flagrant Technical for tossing the ball at #15 and ejected him. Given what a pain #2 had been for them all night, not that #15 was innocent (ended the game with 4 fouls) but #2 was easily worse, I told them I could see possibly going with the Flagrant T at that point but was ok with just the unsporting T.

We've all had problem matchups and players like this. I figured I'd bring it here to see what you all think about how it was handled.

If a kid ever slapped me on the butt, I'd whack and possibly go flagrant depending on what my crew thought and remove him before he even gets a chance to do anything else stupid.

A flagrant T there doesn't solve for the crew's failure to adequately address the problem when they should have.

You say that they "talked to #2" multiple times. After you identify him (correctly) as a problem, take care of business at the first opportunity. That will clean up the rest of the game so you don't have it explode in the 4th quarter.

Why was this not a technical foul?
Sounds like there were either too many warnings, or the one warning came too late. They should have been warned the first time, and punished the second.
Are you freakin' serious?!?!
My God, they let way too much go. This could have been handled from the beginning. If this crew is upset it should be with themselves for allowing this nonsense to happen.

1) I'm surprised you were able to hear what White#2 said before the game.

2) It wasn't after a TO, so the resumption of play shouldn't have been used.

3) Both players had been warned, so the "rolling of the ball and waving off the lead" deserve a T.

4) Both players had been warned, so #15 deserves a T after the foul in the 4th quarter.

The free throw situation should of ended up in a T.

Assuming what you said was true this is all on the crew. I would have asked his coach to address his attitude. #2 would have had a T the moment I saw him jaw at the opponent, most likely a double T here but if 15 so far hasn't been an issue then this is his "warning" with only a T on white. You don't get 2 warnings in my game. I wouldn't have put the ball on the FT line I would've T'd him.

I would've T'd him for the wave off and rolling the ball away. I would've T'd the coach when he went nuts after the call.

T for #15 for taunting.

#2 flagrant for throwing the ball at a player, maybe a T if I were there to see it but from the sounds of it probably not. T for the coach there again.

They started off setting a bad precedent and trying to "coach" the player. You gave him a warning BEFORE the ball was even tossed, were they expecting him to have a come to jesus moment during the game about his attitude?

I wouldn't. I've had chats with players where I explain what they did wrong and they were receptive. It would all depend on context, but this act in and of itself is not a punishable offense to me. In hindsight you can always say, "well #2 was a PITA the rest of the way." But at that moment you don't know that.

He was jumping around and pretty loud and it was before the toss. As for the free throw situation, it was after a common foul that led to the 1 and 1. The crew lined them up, Lead announced 1 and 1, and #2 backed out. Lead again said 1 and 1 and then put the ball down.

We know what it's for. The procedure he used is incorrect.

ART. 5

A player shall not:

Delay the game by acts such as:

a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play.

b. Failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer official when a whistle sounds.

c. The free thrower fails to be in the free-throw semicircle when the official is ready to administer the free throw unless the resumption-of-play procedure is in effect following a time-out or intermission.

d. Repeated violations of the throw-in, as in 9-2-10.

ART. 6

And since this was not following an intermission or time-out, we do not use the procedure.

#2 should have received a T as soon as he refused to come back to the line. This isn't an RPP situation (that I recall).

I'll read the rest now.

That's a player T for delay of game.

If he's acting like that and I give him an opportunity to knock it off, and he slaps my ass you can bet he'll start the game with a T. There is no reason for a player to ever touch an official, not to mention him trying to show you up. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, because I don't think I'll convince you otherwise and vice versa. There are at least 3 other instances where I would've whacked this kid without a second thought, but that hustle pat for me is not a warning. His warning comes when I tell him to cool it with the crap before the game. It's amazing he's gotten this far thinking he can act like that. Guys who did not TCOB, along with poor coaching would be my reasons he acts like this. This kind of crap gets me fired up. What we permit we promote.

RPP is a violation., sans it the play is a T.

DOG warning necessary in this case? Or strait to T? May depend on the extent of the player's actions?

I went ahead and marked all the times I would have called a T before they finally got to it, as well as the one they got (I would not have gone flagrant for that, but he probably wouldn't have lasted that long).

Seems to me that #2 was the problem child and the catalyst. The crew properly warned him before the game, so there's a good chance one of his comments to #15 early in the game would have earned a T if I heard it. If not, his stunt at the FT line would have.

Whether a T would have fixed him is unknown, but a second one would have at least removed the cancer.

Absolutely not.

There are four cases where a DOG warning is allowed, none of them happened at any point in the OP.

I apparently need to freshen up on my DOG scenarios. Care to share what those 4 are?

I don't entirely disagree, that's why I said it's all in context and this isn't automatic.

Take for instance a foul you call and the player asks you what he did. You explain and he get it. He says thanks, pats your butt and walks away. Let's assume it's genuine appreciation.

You call the T. Somewhere in the rule you have justification. In reality you just made a connection with a player who appreciated feedback and you had great communication that almost means you have an ally on that team who can "help" you and the crew. In college, its' a win win. Slapping a T here negates all that and I know will get me a call from my assignor and I will expect a, "why the heck did you call the T." The expectation is to communicate (that's a 2 way street).

I've had a 7 footer come up to me and put his hand on my shoulder and ask why I couldn't have let that foul go (we both laughed and he moved along). In your world that's a T. In mine it's a moment to communicate and build a relationship.

What do you think are?

They're specifically spelled out in the book.
1. Contact with the ball after it goes through the basket that delays the throw in.
2. Contact with a free throw shooter that delays the next shot.
3. Not having the court ready following a timeout.
4. Crossing the throw-in plane.

That's it. That's the list.

You can warn for other things, but the warning is not an official dog warning. Doing that leads to potential problems that I wouldn't want to have to explain.

I misread your post, or the intention anyway. I understand what you're saying, and agree. I think in the OP the kid showed that he was a smart*** before the game started, so in that situation it's a T. A kid genuinely thanking me is not going to be a T. But a player touching me in any way other than genuine appreciation is not getting another chance to do that.

The one message I did give the crew was, from my perspective, they did too much talking and warning without ever setting the line and dealing with their problem children. The free throw line situation to me, rolling the ball away especially, would have earned #2 a T. The slap on the butt at the beginning I am not so sure for the reasons Deecee stated. When the official talked to him, he stopped, seemed to acknowledge, and slapped his butt. Inappropriate yes but I find it hard to believe most of us would have done anything other than playing on at that point. Would the radar mark #2? Yep.

As for the free throw situation, I know it is not an ROP situation but I am not sure I wouldn't have done what the Lead did. Tell him again get in and then deal with it. Those who disagree, and again I know the rule, if this just happened in one of your games and you didn't have the previous behavior issues, would you really have just stuck a player for not coming in?

Yes, because that's what the rule says to do. There is no basis in the book to resume play like he did.

Thanks for the info. I knew 1, 3, and 4.

If the player is out of the semi absent-minded, you'd be more lenient. If the player is being obstinate, I've no problem with a T.

Case Book 8.1.1 A1 is awarded two free throws. After the players have had sufficient opportunity and time to take their positions for the first throw, the administering official bounces the ball to the free thrower. Did the official follow proper procedure?

Ruling:

Yes. On free throws the word disposal is interpreted to mean that the official shall bounce the ball to the free thrower, but if the free thrower refuses to accept it, the official may place the ball on the floor at the free throw line and begin his count. This procedure constitutes putting the ball at the free thrower's disposal.

9.1.3 The official administering a free throw awarded to A1 places the ball at his/her disposal. A1, who is inside the free throw semi-circle leaves the semi-circle to confer with a teammate.

Ruling: Violation. After the ball has been placed at the disposal of the free thrower, he/she is not permitted to leave OR enter the free throw semi-circle without violating until restrictions have ended.

Neither of these case plays are ROP plays.

In this case the player is outside and won't come in. The official placed it at his disposal and the violation was called as soon as he entered. Where does it say this is automatic T?

It is not in the Technical foul chart or in any rule or play I can find.

In this particular game, I could see whacking #2 for an unsporting action/behavior. I get that. But, forget this game. For those that would whack a player right away for not coming in, what rule are you using to support that?

Me personally, no. I would go to the kid and say, "I'm asking you do to something simple. If you don't listen it's a T. It's your choice. When I turn back around I'd recommend you be at the line." Then I walk back to the lead position. I guarantee you when I turn around he's at the line.

I would have made one more request for #2 to come back to the line. If I didn't see immediate movement, then yes, I'd have stuck him. This one is a no-brainer because of his previous issues.

Had this been a model player up to that point, my request may have included a bit more (unannounced) time for compliance. #2 had already squandered all of his initial good will.

Either way, I wouldn't use RPP (simply because it's not called for in the rule.) I'm not faulting them for doing it. Either way, he gets the T when he rolls the ball to the bench (assuming the L was asking him for the ball).

What are you going to do? Stand there and beg him? Do what these guys did and look like a crew of chumps? Take care of business and move on.

Not listening to instructions. Your scenario presumes the player is in the semi circle.

Look at the ROP and the scenarios for DOG.

Sniper quoted it:

Deecee that's my thinking. I know the delay rule. For #2, I would have stuck him based upon the problem he'd been from the jump. In a regular situation though, I am pretty sure the first time it happened I would have placed the ball at the line and then called the violation as soon as he came to get it. I think by the plays I cited that is justified as well.

I get the 10-4-5(c). Totally get it. To me though, especially the 9.1.3 Situation I play seems to put forth a contradiction when it says may not leave OR ENTER after it is at the disposal. It does not mention ROP at all and neither does Rule 9-1-3 which deals with after the ball has been placed at the disposal of a free thrower.

Now you might be able to argue and convince me words have been omitted and the 10-4 wording trumps all. It perplexes me though that case plays in Rules 8 and 9 and Rules 8 and 9 appear to give conflicting guidance.

Maybe I am just reading too much into them.

Right. I didn't read what I was quoting carefully enough. RIF on my end.

I think the key is that the player left the semi-circle prior to the ball being at his disposal. This puts it into the 10-4 category, IMO.

Walt, all the rules have been cited. The issue is a player NOT willing to enter the semi circle NOT a player not willing to accept the ball.

The difference is the ball by rule should not of been placed at the disposal of the player.

Assuming the 9-1-3 play RULING omits wording as it relates to entering when the RPP is in effect, I get the T under 10-4-5(c). And again, in the OP, #2 should have been whacked long before then.

I agree with the why and how all of you are reading it. Thanks for the discussion. Deecee that last comment really brightened the light bulb in my head!

That's why we have it as a tool. It doesn't mean we need to use it if the player isn't being a problem before this point. If he hadn't been an @$$ all game, I'd give him more leash to get in the circle but warn him he needs to get there. I wouldn't put the ball down because we have specific times when we can do that, and this isn't one.

And 10-4-5 specifically tells us when it isn't a T and that's following a timeout or intermission. The rule has everything we need baked in.

Yep, got it now. I was getting caught up in the "real game", more leash for a better behaved player action, rather than the true application of the rule. Thanks.

"Always" implies multiple times. At the point the crew warned them I would have whacked both of them. If #2 still felt brave enough to walk out of the semi-circle later in the game, I would have whacked him again and his sub would have been shooting 1-and-1.

"Coach -- if #2 doesn't enter the circle right now I will be forced to enforce the rule and give him a T."

10-4-5-a
10-4-5-c

Agree. The butt slap would not draw a T from me unless there were words with it telling me it wasn't jovial in nature.

Not a chance I give a kid a T for a pat on the butt. I would start the game exactly as this crew did, but recognize immediately that #2 is nothing more than a GFU. The rest of the stuff deserved a quicker reaction and quicker technical fouls.

You'd wack a player for walking away while trying to talk to him/her? I can see if something else is involved, but if a player just walks away from me I may make a mental note but I can't see a reason to T them.

I'd do that in a second. If I'm trying to talk to a kid like this, and keep from having to assess the T, and he cops the attitude that he doesn't have to listen to me and just turns and walks away, I'd whack him immediately.

I'm imputing my own motives to the C here. Frankly, the only conversation I'm having with him is an attempt to prevent a T by getting him to go get the ball he just rolled away. Short of him or a teammate going to get the ball immediately, it's a T. Had this been the first issue, I'm simply marking him as a trouble-child. But that's not what happened here.

Honestly, he's got the T (probably 2) from me long before that point, so it really doesn't get there.