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Remington Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:30am

Mercy Rule Help
 
Our state has adopted the "mercy rule" for our lowest level of varsity basketball. The state has said a running clock will be used if a lead is 30 points or greater at the start of, or reaches at any time during, the fourth quarter. The clock would only stop for time outs or injury.

One of our officials had a game last night where the score was 30+ and A1 was fouled in the act of shooting. Before the free throws, Team A called a timeout. The clock stopped, but the officials weren't sure when to start the clock. Should it start when the timeout ends or when the free throws end? I visited with the state and they didn't have an answer yet.

For those of you with similar mercy rules, what is the ruling in your area?

SNIPERBBB Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:50am

To be simple, it really ought to be when the clock would start had there not been this rule, ie once the ball is touched after a missed try or after touched on the throwin after a made basket.

Camron Rust Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB (Post 994842)
To be simple, it really ought to be when the clock would start had there not been this rule, ie once the ball is touched after a missed try or after touched on the throwin after a made basket.

Given the purpose of the mercy rule, I suggest starting it when the ball is put back in play....when becomes live on the FT.

SNIPERBBB Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:40am

If I wqs doing a tournament id start it after the second horn.

deecee Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Remington (Post 994841)
Our state has adopted the "mercy rule" for our lowest level of varsity basketball. The state has said a running clock will be used if a lead is 30 points or greater at the start of, or reaches at any time during, the fourth quarter. The clock would only stop for time outs or injury.

One of our officials had a game last night where the score was 30+ and A1 was fouled in the act of shooting. Before the free throws, Team A called a timeout. The clock stopped, but the officials weren't sure when to start the clock. Should it start when the timeout ends or when the free throws end? I visited with the state and they didn't have an answer yet.

For those of you with similar mercy rules, what is the ruling in your area?

The clock runs when its supposed to and when its not (they give you the exceptions). All injuries and TO's have a start and end. When the TO ends the clock starts. No more complicated than that.

bob jenkins Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:44am

Both points of view expressed so far are valid. And, of course, I've never seein it specifically addressed in any of the mercy rules (no one ever thinks that far in advance). So, I think it depends on the wording of the rule.

If it says "the clock stops only on a TO or injury" then start it when the clock would normally start.

If it says "the clock runs, except during a TO or injury" then start it when the TO is over.

Adam Wed Dec 14, 2016 05:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 994843)
Given the purpose of the mercy rule, I suggest starting it when the ball is put back in play....when becomes live on the FT.

Without sufficient guidance from the state that states otherwise, this is what I would do.

crosscountry55 Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:18pm

I've run across this same dilemma in a multitude of youth games that employ a running clock. I've never seen any running clock rule (youth game, camp game, or HS mercy rule) specify how such a situation is to be treated. So without guidance and in consideration of the paltry pay usually at stake, I generally could care less how the timer chooses to interpret the rule.

More often than not, most timers seem to defer to the "start it when it would have started absent the rule" methodology. I have seen some coaches intentionally call timeout during free throws for the express purpose of saving as much time as possible, knowing that the clock will remain stopped during the FTs after the TO.

HokiePaul Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:24am

Most of the schools in my area have adopted a similar rule. I can only speak for my area, but I believe the intent is that when the clock stops (for FTs, TO, injury), it stays stopped until it would normally be started (i.e. legally touched inbounds).

The timer is simply instructed not to stop the clock as they normally would for non-shooting fouls, held balls, or violations. Nothing else changes.

RedKillian Thu Dec 15, 2016 03:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 994936)
Most of the schools in my area have adopted a similar rule. I can only speak for my area, but I believe the intent is that when the clock stops (for FTs, TO, injury), it stays stopped until it would normally be started (i.e. legally touched inbounds).

The timer is simply instructed not to stop the clock as they normally would for non-shooting fouls, held balls, or violations. Nothing else changes.

Here in Minnesota, we have the mercy rule. The rule states the clock stops for time outs, injuries, when officials need to confer with the table and other unusual delays. We do run it during free throws when no time outs are involved. It does not explicitly state when the clock should be restarted. I've never had discussion with any of my partners on when the clock should be restarted. The clock gets started as normal just like HokiePaul describes above. I do tell the timer to stop the clock if a player is shooting free throws at the end of the game, do not let time expire with a player at the line.

UNIgiantslayers Thu Dec 15, 2016 04:35pm

In Iowa at 35 pts, it stops for free throws when mercy rule is in effect, which I've always thought was odd. They have to get the lead down to 20 for the running clock to stop.

deecee Thu Dec 15, 2016 05:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers (Post 994960)
In Iowa at 35 pts, it stops for free throws when mercy rule is in effect, which I've always thought was odd. They have to get the lead down to 20 for the running clock to stop.

CA had the mercy rule. It was 40 points and once the clock starts it only stops for injuries or TO's. It starts and runs when the ball is made live and once it starts there is no scenario where it goes back to normal for the remainder of the game. This was 5 years ago, since I moved from CA, so some things may have changed.

packersowner Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:26pm

Starting the clock at the end of the timeout period seems to make the most sense. Otherwise, this encourages a coach to take the remaining timeouts simply to stop the clock during the free throw.

VaTerp Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 994936)
Most of the schools in my area have adopted a similar rule. I can only speak for my area, but I believe the intent is that when the clock stops (for FTs, TO, injury), it stays stopped until it would normally be started (i.e. legally touched inbounds).

The timer is simply instructed not to stop the clock as they normally would for non-shooting fouls, held balls, or violations. Nothing else changes.

The rule in VA is a VHSL rule that conferences can elect to opt out of. But that rules specifies that exceptions to the clock running include FTs, timeouts, injuries, and administration of technical fouls.

This is not helpful to the OP b/c his state rule apparently does not include a FT exception. As such I would instruct the timer start the clock after the timeout has ended and the ball is placed at the disposal of the FT shooter.

The state should issue clarifying language for this situation.

deecee Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by VaTerp (Post 995021)
The state should issue clarifying language for this situation.

What clarifying language? It's a blowout, run the clock as much and often as you can so you can get over with it.

Coach Bill Sat Dec 17, 2016 03:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by packersowner (Post 994986)
Starting the clock at the end of the timeout period seems to make the most sense. Otherwise, this encourages a coach to take the remaining timeouts simply to stop the clock during the free throw.

What's wrong with that? I hate the "mercy" rule. Whether on the winning or losing end, it's an opportunity to get some kids more playing time than they might otherwise. I wouldn't want to cut that short. I wouldn't call timeout if ahead by 40, but i would understand if the losing team didn't want to get the game cut short. I think it should only be in effect by mutual agreement. How do other coaches feel?

BlueDevilRef Sat Dec 17, 2016 09:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach Bill (Post 995107)
What's wrong with that? I hate the "mercy" rule. Whether on the winning or losing end, it's an opportunity to get some kids more playing time than they might otherwise. I wouldn't want to cut that short. I wouldn't call timeout if ahead by 40, but i would understand if the losing team didn't want to get the game cut short. I think it should only be in effect by mutual agreement. How do other coaches feel?



If you are waiting until you are getting blown out by 40 to get playing time for the end of your bench, that's on you.

Coach Bill Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef (Post 995120)
If you are waiting until you are getting blown out by 40 to get playing time for the end of your bench, that's on you.

Where did I say or imply that I did that? And, I don't get the point. My point is I don't care what the score is, I want to play a full game.

Rich Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach Bill (Post 995242)
Where did I say or imply that I did that? And, I don't get the point. My point is I don't care what the score is, I want to play a full game.

Well, you're the only one.

Amazing how 2 free throws can take a minute when the clock's running. :D

bob jenkins Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 995248)
Well, you're the only one.

the coaches, in general, in IL also feel the same way as Coach Bill. That's why there is no mercy rule during the regular season or state-playoffs.

Holiday tournaments can choose to have one -- but few do.

UNIgiantslayers Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach Bill (Post 995107)
What's wrong with that? I hate the "mercy" rule. Whether on the winning or losing end, it's an opportunity to get some kids more playing time than they might otherwise. I wouldn't want to cut that short. I wouldn't call timeout if ahead by 40, but i would understand if the losing team didn't want to get the game cut short. I think it should only be in effect by mutual agreement. How do other coaches feel?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach Bill (Post 995242)
Where did I say or imply that I did that? And, I don't get the point. My point is I don't care what the score is, I want to play a full game.

You weren't implying it with this?

JRutledge Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 995250)
the coaches, in general, in IL also feel the same way as Coach Bill. That's why there is no mercy rule during the regular season or state-playoffs.

Holiday tournaments can choose to have one -- but few do.

I am with Coach Bill and most of the coaches in Illinois if they feel that way. I do not see this as a big deal an if it saves what like 15 minutes, that is not worth it to eliminate a couple kids that could play game. If we are keep being told this is about the kids, then let them play. I really do not care that darn much to save a few minutes.

Now for tournament sake where multiple games could be going on at a time, then yes, get the games over with if you can for the integrity of the schedule. Otherwise, let the kids play a little longer.

Peace

Rich Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 995250)
the coaches, in general, in IL also feel the same way as Coach Bill. That's why there is no mercy rule during the regular season or state-playoffs.



Holiday tournaments can choose to have one -- but few do.


We play 18 minute halves now. The extra 4 minutes of play aren't all that welcome in a 40-point blowout.


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