Hanging on the rim
 

Thought I would post a couple plays that involve grabbing/hanging on the rim. There is a lot more above the rim play in our games and we need to be ready to officiate these plays.

Play 1: https://streamable.com/spzh

Play 2: https://streamable.com/z4by

Play 3: https://streamable.com/k9at

Great videos!

1.) Nothing. Kid had some serious momentum downcourt, so I saw his rim-hang as a safety precaution more or less.
2.) Technical ... if he actually hung on the rim. Tough to be sure on video from 100 feet away, but it definitely looked like he did.
3.) Nothing. Kid was hopeful for a tip jam, and when that opportunity passed, I'd also pass and say he was just protecting himself/others with the rim-hang.

1. Tech. looks like he pulls himself up, IMO.
2. Nothing. Looks like brief touch from the angle we have.
3. Nothing. Safety issue.

1. I likely have a T, but it is hard to tell how close the player is under him. That would make the difference for me.

2. I do not see a grab, I see a touch and that would make a difference. Too far away to know for sure.

3. No T, he grabs the rim while someone is under him.

Peace

In 2nd example, he grabs rim to help secure rebound. That is something.

Play 1, technical. He was fine until he added the pull up.

Play 2, nothing.

Play 3, technical. There was a player underneath him, but there isn't any reason for him to be on the rim in the first place. The opportunity to get the rebound has long past.

I agree with you that he doesn't need to be going at the rim this way and doesn't have a chance at the ball. But, because that player is under him, i don't call the T here. I think if safety is an issue he can grab it. i don't see the rule letting me consider how dumb he was getting himself into that position.

1. Nothing. He comes down when he has his body under control and it is clear.

2. Nothing from that vantage point. all though I would like a better look at it. Hard to tell if he is protecting himself or avoiding the rim or gaining some sort of unintended advantage.

3. Nothing. He's airborne he's going to come across someone's back and is using the rim to protect himself and the other kid. Move on.

1) This one is close with the little extra hang and pull once he only has one hand on the rim. I probably pass on the T but say something to #23 and/or his coach as a reminder.

2) T. He gains an advantage in securing the rebound by grabbing the rim. Hard to see in transition and it was quick but would have been a great get by the C or T.

3) Nothing. He mistimed his attempt on the rebound but would err on the side of safety in not penalizing.

Play 1: Technical - seems like we've talked about this one before and I'm in technical camp

Play 2: Technical - I see the rim being pulled down.

Play 3: Probably don't have a technical, but I'd more than likely have a foul. He landed on the kids head which directly impacted his ability to get a rebound and/or defend the other player

Play 1: Technical - seems like we've talked about this one before and I'm in technical camp

Play 2: Technical - I see the rim being pulled down.

Play 3: Probably don't have a technical, but I'd more than likely have a foul. He landed on the kids head which directly impacted his ability to get a rebound and/or defend the other player

Nothing. Nothing. Nothing.

Won't be a popular answer, but I'd get all three at the high school level.

1. Technical. To me he's good until the pull up.

2. Nothing

3. Nothing

Have a patient whistle. The ball went in (if I remember) and nobody got hit etc. I'd pass on everything.

Ball went in but that was after the defender got landed on. He had no chance to get the board (would have been tough anyways) and then zero chance to defend the putback. I think you have to get the foul here.

I looked at it again and the ball didn't go in. You and blindoblat are correct. No T but the defender wasn't able to defend after the rebound. Foul on offense. Good calls by you both.

Great videos to start thinking about for the upcoming season. I had nothing on all 3 initially, but after reviewing the comments, I agree that the 3rd should be a foul.

1) I'd let this go. Any pull up appeared to be him slowing his momentum and checking to see where the defender was before dropping to the ground. There didn't seem to be any intent to show up the opponent here so unless there had been something previously, I'm not jumping in on that.

2) It's a long way away, but I tend to give players the benefit of the doubt on safety. Even if he did grasp the ring, I think it was more protecting himself from hitting the rim after the pass got deflected vs gaining an advantage on the rebound.

3) Grabs the basket to prevent injury. Agree after watching the video that it should have been a foul. I'm going team control foul too. It looks like the contact occurred right after his teammate got the rebound but before the shot. No basket.

I'm in the camp that holding on the rim for safety is an overused excuse. In play 1, if A flushes the dunk and momentum keeps him moving, there is no safety issue. When I see legs go swinging to me that's going to get called more times than not.

Excuse = person explaining himself for his actions.

We go by judgment. WE judge whether or not the player did it for safety reasons.

This isn't about proving a point about something we don't personally like. It's about adjudicating the rules with our best, unbiased judgment. Supervisors don't want officials actively looking to make "I gotcha" calls.

Not really, safety is the exception to the rule. Grasping the rim is a technical. My point is, the classic line from every coach regardless of what you call is going to be safety.

I don't disagree and I am not going to die on this hill most days, but the opposing coach in the video, also thought it should have been called. We all have our threshold for what is unsportsmanlike and what is done for safety reasons. My point is that whenever these plays are shown, the first thing everyone goes to is safety and I think its too easy to make that excuse. I'm never going to have a problem defending either call with a supervisor, but if a supervisor looks at a tape afterwards and there isn't a safety concern, then thats on me and the opposing coach has just as much right to be upset.

My supervisors will be more upset with me for calling one that is borderline than for missing one that was there.

Hanging on the rim
 

Sue me for opening an old thread, but I thought it made sense in this case. Partner called a hanging T last night. The other two of us were starting to put air in our whistles when he did. The dunker did the slightest little quarter chin-up, but what sealed the deal for us was the country minute that he hung for, without another soul anywhere nearby underneath. It was a no-brainer to all of us.

What was interesting was the coach’s argument. He knew he couldn’t talk about players underneath, so he insisted that his player had a right to keep hanging until he stopped swinging because he could break his neck if he didn’t. This wasn’t a flyer of an argument; he really believed himself.

Oh give me a break. I had to walk away. One of the dumber things I’ve ever heard a coach say. If dunking were so dangerous it would be illegal.


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I think he may be talking about what happened in the first video of the OP of this thread (Which I don't think is a technical). If a player has a lot of forward momentum and his feet swing up in front of him, I'm not going to penalize him if he swings back perpendicular to the ground so he can land on his feet and not on his back. I'm not talking about hanging there for several seconds or doing a pull up.

Ok, I’ll give you that. No one expects a player to be required to release the rim so as to land on his back. But that is decidedly not what we observed. Our dunker’s swing was never more than 10 degrees off perpendicular. There was zero risk in his landing. He just decided to hang there and make a spectacle of himself. Apparently his coach felt that somehow put his neck at risk? [emoji12]


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What alternative did he have? Accept that his player did something worthy of a technical? Never! :p

The only reason that player's feet swung up in front of him is because he was hanging on the rim to start with.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.espn.com/core/video/iframe?id=22138361&endcard=false" allowfullscreen frameborder="0"></iframe>

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=22138361

I don't know if he slipped or tried to come off too early. Maybe something to keep in mind if you feel you're getting too quick to whistle a T? Just throwing this out there in a related thread.

1. T
2. T
3. Foul - player jumps nearly over, but not quite, defender with all kinds of illegal contact to the defender's head. Then, no-call the rim-grab for safety.

This play is exactly what was on my mind as I was reading/re-reading people say that player safety was an overused excuse.

Over the years I've seen enough dangerous situations with players having certain momentum and trajectory that I'm going to err on the side of allowing them to protect themselves in those instances.

It seems to me that letting players grasp/hang on the rim is part of what caused this problem. There used to be an expectation that on a dunk the player didn't grab and pull the rim. That softened over time so that grabbing with some pull is the norm. Once players hold it, the kind of face plant becomes more likely.

While part of me (I'm not sure if its the "get off my lawn!" part or the "I could never dunk very well anyhow" part) wants to say that we could solve this better by going back in time and saying just don't grab the rim at all, the part of me that lives in the real world comes to terms with needing to be more accepting of letting them hang longer so that they land instead of face plant. (I can't get that video out of my head and never want to see one like that again.)

You make a fair point.

But I think the cat is out of the bag in terms of not allowing any grab or pull on the rim. I'm fine with things as is and am just going to continue to err on the side of letting them hang momentarily to protect themselves and issue Ts when its unwarranted and excessive.

If we want to change rules to address safety on plays attacking the basket I'd be more interested in adding a RA at the HS level. But that's a discussion for another day.

Change the rule. You can hang on the rim however long you want with out penalty but if you break it your team forfeits. :)

When it comes to momentum, it is always the player's choice/fault to hang on the rim. Every player knows their forward speed and they never need to hang on the rim for initial attacks at the basket. Dunking is all about choices at the rim. I found it to be a bit of sweet justice when the guy fell on his face. I certainly do not like to see people ever get hurt but his actions were not necessary and I guarantee that he has been grasping/hanging on rims ever since he could touch it, all for no reason other than to look cool. Dunking by default, at least for the last 30 years, always meant and means grasping the ring. Everyone has to hang a bit, retract the rim, swing, etc., again, all unnecessary acts that are chosen by the player, including myself. I have seen countless people fall awkwardly, again including myself, when grabbing the rim. It is all their own fault.

Certainly once at the rim, if someone decides to come under them, then indeed, hang for safety. I always prefer to land on the person, if a defender, and dole out some street, or court, justice.;)