I wish NFHS mechanics indicated...
 

...calling official go opposite table so we don't have coaches chirping in our ear. I assume I'm not alone here, but that would be my preference. Do any of you who have been around or are privy to the conversations that happen in the circle of those who matter more than me know why they have calling official stay table side?

Also, sorry if this has been discussed in the past.

I wish NFHS mechanics indicated...
 

Always an interesting conversation. There are pros and cons. In general, staying tableside saves a few seconds of walking, and I think the NFHS would rather see officials communicate openly and honestly with coaches who have questions. Along with that, of course, they expect us to take care of business when coaches cross the line.

I'm for staying tableside.


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I can understand and respect that. I'm often the youngest on my crew though, so maybe I'm touchy about how much more I perceive coaches trying to see how far they can push with me. Maybe I need to stop being so sensitive:cool:

This!! And also, it gives you an opportunity to explain something if it needs explaining. Don't feel like you have to respond and explain EVERYTHING, but at the same time, if you can't explain it, you shouldn't have called it. Sometimes it's a fine line as to whether or not something needs to be explained. That's just something that will come with time.

Just b/c you go tableside doesn't mean you have to be close enough to the coach for him to bend your ear. ;)

Personally, I prefer being table side because if there's something I need to say to the coach, I can do it more quietly. If I don't want to hear him, I can tune him out just as easily from either side. In fact, that might be easier if he's not yelling across the court.

I know it's what you're saying, but just because I can explain something doesn't mean I'm going to take the time to do it; even if I'm table side.

Did you work when we did go opposite?

I prefer the current arrangement.

I sure didn't, that's why I included the part about those of you who have been around. Care to expand?

Agree. It was near impossible to answer a question to from across the court and it was awkward diverting so you didn't have to yell at the coach to give an explanation. Of course, yelling is usually not a good choice. Now, you have the opportunity to answer a question in the natural flow of the game without making it so obvious and without creating much, if any, delay.

You always have the option of not sitting right in the coaches lap if you don't want to and you also have the option of just not rotating to that spot of you need to keep away from the coach for a bit.

Nope. I prefer to go tableside. For one, I can explain something if it warrants. Two, I don't have to try and placate a coach for a call my partner made. I wish NCAA M wasn't the outlier and had officials go tableside. Every assignor I've had has side as much.

Learning to deal with coaches is half the job. Once you figure that out this gets even easier.

I can see where newer officials being near newer coaches could cause some problems -- neither knows how to talk to the other, yet. On the other hand, when are you going to learn?

All they do is when you go opposite is yell across the floor. Nothing is so special about being table side or opposite table. We go opposite table in college and it does not make communication always better. The difference with college is the officials tend to be a little more experienced so they know how to handle many coaches yelling across the court, but that does not mean it does not have its problems. I have gotten to the point where I really do not care either way.

Peace

In our state, in a game with 2 officials we do go opposite table. I prefer to stay table side. Just think there is less loud communication between coach and official.

There is a problem with many NFHS high school officials who are their own worst enemies. They report the foul far too close to the table and then head on over toward the coach, into what we around here call the "Hornets Nest", or the "Coach's Vortex" into which they get sucked.
The coach would have had nothing to say had not the official abetted his comment by his proximity. Most often then, the comment is not a question, not constuctive, and was only instigated by such an unnecessary close proximity. You're entering his house...he pretty much feels he's gotta say something.
Bad.
Solution: Review the actual reporting box. (Billy Mac, can you post it for me?) Get there...report...turn around and be in position for the ensuing play. Report from where you want to be for the next play. Quick getting sucked into the vortex. Stay out of the hornet's nest. Most often the coach has nothing to say or ask.
Many get themselves in trouble when they report and then saunter on over towards the coach and end up conversing in unconstructive banter otherwise unforthcoming. If the coach has a question, give him the proximity and the time -- keep your head, shoulders, and eyes on the court while listening --, but that is probably a lot more rare than those who bring it upon themselves by getting sucked into the vortex of the "Hornet's Nest".
I speak not only as an official, but as a former coach who loved to suck officials into my "Vortex" to chew on them strategically when they were willing to get sucked in.

Agreed!!!

Peace

it doesn't bother me going away from the table. And if I need to say something to the coach then I'll let my partner know I'm coming tableside.

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Ask And It Will Be Given To You (Matthew 7:7) ...
 

I would much rather the NFHS allow two-handed reporting.

I would love the opportunity to go tableside after a foul. We do 2-man.:mad:

Really? That is such a meaningless distinction that adds absolutely nothing to the game or your ability to officiate.

You do if there will be FTs.

When I was new I felt the same way about getting away from coaches, but it turns out I was just too thin-skinned and didn't know how to explain the call well.

But it's something we have to learn how to do. Besides, I love Adam's point about being able to speak with a coach without either party yelling across the court, or staying by the bench to make it obvious.

My goal for this year is to improve my communication skills and hopefully bring down the number of T's I hand out. I'm hoping an improvement in communication will help de-escalate a handful of the technicals. Maybe a higher comfort level being closer to the coaches will follow as I improve that area. This will be my first year with a varsity only slate through each week with my only sub varsity being Saturday booster tourneys, so hopefully with that many games with a bit more at stake, I'll feel more comfortable, confident, and look less like the new guy on all of my crews.

First off, congrats!!! And to put you at ease, it's not a matter of hoping. When you work at 7pm every Tuesday and Friday, it means your assignor trusts you and most coaches get that. I'm positive you'll be comfortable and confident very quickly this season.



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Thanks man... I was doing mostly varsity last year, but threw in some sub varsity stuff to fill out the schedule. Those were tough because a lot of times guys at the sub varsity level are either done doing varsity so they don't care, or trying to work their way up and aren't as strong so I don't learn a whole lot. I love doing varsity because I always learn something new from the guys I work with.

Nor does going opposite table after reporting.

I think there is more purpose for what side we go to after a foul than there is if we report 2 hands or 1.

Peace

I'm surprised to see this thread turn into an argument about something that has nothing to do with the original post. I wish that would happen more here.:D

Then why don't we have the option to report with two hands under NFHS mechanics?

Anyway, my point was only that I would rather see two hands allowed as opposed to going opposite if I had to choose an NFHS mechanics change.

Because that is a college (and pro) mechanic. And for the record your jurisdiction can do whatever the heck they want in this area. Mechanics are not something we are all tied to either way. If your state or associations wants to do something else, that is their right. The NF is a starting point for most of us, but not everything has to be done to the letter of the NF mechanics.

I would also assume that the reason there is only 1 hand reporting, is the fact that the NF (or any HS organization) wants to make things simple and to complicated.

Peace

Sure, but the reality is that a lot of states use NFHS mechanics to the letter and are not going to make changes on their own.

I don't agree that two handed reporting makes anything more complicated.

Two hand reporting can also be confusing for the table.

Say I want to report a foul on number "21", so I hold up two fingers on my left hand and one finger on my right. When looking at it from my viewpoint I'm showing "21", but from the table's viewpoint I'm showing number "12". And if the table can't hear me verbally say "21", they may give the foul to the wrong player, thus causing problems down the road.

There needs to be a specific mechanic given by the NF for reporting player numbers with two hands, so that both the official and table know what to do/look for. However, there's not. So you're inevitably going to run into problems like I described. Therefore... keep it simple-stupid.

BTW, I think we all have worked games with people at the table that are less than competent. And perhaps that's not as much of a problem at the college level, thus making two-handed foul reporting less of a problem.

There is already a standard for 2-hand reporting. Right hand is the "tens" and left hand is the "ones". That way the table reads us from their left to their right.

Well if I have learned anything from this board, there are a lot of states and I would suggest most that do not use NF Mechanics to a letter. There are many places that have variations or things that need to be I have always said that NF Mechanics (or any mechanics) are a guide and starting point.

I also was not giving just my position on why there are not two handed reporting, but stated the NF position or what seems to be their philosophy on all their mechanics. Most of their mechanics are easier and standard so that everyone from the brand new official to the 50 year veteran can follow.

Peace

This. Every level of two-handed reporting does it this way and any scorekeeper worth their salt should be able to handle two-handed reporting. Most of the time the scorekeeper knows who the foul is on anyway. :D

Two-handed reporting is just a matter of time, but I just don't get the obsession with it. I really couldn't care less either way. This is one potential rule/mechanic change I would not vote for or against.

No, it's not difficult to do.
No, it's not difficult to read from the scorer's table.
No, it doesn't really add anything to the game.

That's on the official for not reporting correctly.

And I think that this is why we do not have a overall mechanical change as this is exactly the concern. We have officials that cannot get right one hand (putting hands in front of body or face and cannot raise their hand in the air properly) reporting right and why I feel they have yet to make a change.

Peace

This mechanic was developed to relieve us from having to take our shoes and socks off to indicate a foul on a player whose number was higher than 10. ;)

I didn't know there was a standard in high school officiating. I don't see the big deal, anyway.

There isn't. There is a standard for 2-hand reporting, in response to this:

And I said I didn't know there was a high school standard. Thus making the prior comment about the confusion unnecessary or just wrong.

Quite the contrary - NCAA-M should go table side like every other league in the world.

There is no 2-hand reporting in HS, so your musings about confusion was pointless. If HS goes to 2-hand reporting, there is already a standard they will adopt. If someone is going renegade and doing 2-hand reporting in HS games, there is still a standard way of doing 2-hand reporting. Not sure why you can't grasp that. :confused:

So there "is no 2-hand reporting in HS", but some renegade officials may be doing it anyway, but that's okay because "there is still a standard way of doing 2-hand reporting".

Really? There is no standard high school mechanic... but actually there is? Oh! I see, because that's the way they do it in college, so of course a renegade official will do it the collegiate way, and of course the table personnel will know the college way and totally get it right.

And you don't see any confusion happening? None at all?

Look... my comment had to do with the NF not having a standard way of reporting, and giving an example of what could potentially happen. I went on to point out that confusion was more likely at the high school level due to poor table personnel, and could have gone on about the many poor high school officials (we all know some).

The response made it seem like some places do use 2-handed mechanics, and they are standardized (by an association, league, or whatever), hence me saying I was wrong. I actually backed off my original response, and took back what I said saying I was wrong.

And apparently I'm the problem? Now that's confusing. :confused:

I do not know why you would be taking this all so personal. For one the NF does not have any such mechanic for reporting fouls other than using one hand. The other levels use two-hand reporting, not the NF at this time. So if they decide to adopt that mechanic, I am sure they would say how it is to be done or not done. Not many options of course, but I would not put it past the NF to have a different standard. Now if your state as adopted this method already, then they might just stick with that standard. But all that has been said and it is true, the NF has not adopted this method, no more than they have told us that we are to report fouls outside of the reporting area, but official do this all the time outside of the NF stated mechanics.

Peace

Funny nobody has cited 2-9-1 yet in this discussion: "...then with the finger(s) of one hand indicate to the scorer..."

What really is there to discuss unless you are suggesting that the rules support the mechanics?

Peace

Not to belabor this tangent on the OP, but the way I read bryans original comment was exactly what you said above.

You are making this way too complicated. It is standard practice to read and write from left to right. The reporting official has no need to read or write the numbers, but the person at the table does, therefore, the hands are used so that the person reading the number gets it in the normal, standard practice of reading and writing. This is not a basketball issue. Under what circumstances would it make any sense at all for the order of the numbers be reversed so that the person actually reading them has to do something the exact opposite of what he does any other time he is reading a number?

Just wanted to put on the table the fact that the mechanic supports an existing, albeit not widely known, rule -- a reality that had not been expressed previously.

Could just as easily replace "one" with "two" or "one or two" if there's a mechanics change.

This is not rocket engineering. HS mechanics is one handed reporting and college is 2. IF you use 2 in HS yes the table will get it as at the least their IQ would be 60. Which I think is all you need to figure out a number being reported using one hand or two.

Facing the umpire in baseball.

So let's start over.

Why would you be reporting 2-hands in a HS game?

If you were reporting with 2-hands in a HS game, why would you be using the wrong hands?

Why would it be confusing to the table if the person reporting with 2-hands was doing it properly?

I can see this happening. You're at a camp. They are playing HS rules and using HS mechanics. Camp supervisor tells the officials, I don't care if you use 1-hand or 2-hands when reporting fouls. Bryan decides to use 2-hands, but keeps using his left hands for the "tens' and his right hand for the "ones".

Observer to Bryan: "If you are going to use 2-hand reporting, you need to do it properly".
Bryan to observer: "Yeah, but the NFHS doesn't have a standard for 2-hand reporting."
Observer to Bryan: "Anybody using 2-hands should already know the proper way or shouldn't be doing it"
Bryan: Another "yeah but...." response

Bryan later wonders why observers stopped giving him feedback after his games.

I think the main issue in HS (which includes JV and Freshman) is that you have many scorekeepers and likely many officials that just will not get it right. You'll have some number of officials that will put the 10's number on their left hand because that is how they see it. Sometimes, you'll have scorekeepers that are barely paying attention since it is someone they could talk into doing the lower level game. I'm not against 2-hand reporting at the levels where everyone is going to be up to speed but doing it across the board is just going to create situations that can be avoided.

I think this is the key (as well as BNR's comments). Having been a clinician with my state for almost 10 years now, I can tell you that it is hard some times to get officials to even get simple things right like how you stop the clock and we are going to expect they will be able to accurately report a foul with both hands at the freshman level? And that does not include the fact that at the freshman level, we are lucky (at least in this area) to get an adult run the table. Instead we have a student who is more concerned with their phone than actually paying attention to us when reporting. I wish I had a dollar every time I try to report in any game and have the table not paying attention to me when reporting the foul. This is more of a problem at the lower levels because the table person thinks they know who the foul is on. Many times they are right, other times they are not.

Peace