Help Request: Inconsistency of Travel Call
 

I had been meaning to pose this question to forum--as I had observed this to occur frequently in "girls/women" games and it was not called--could someone here pls lend some insight / experience.

Sitch: Female player (A1) receives a pass coming off an elbow area screen, and prepares to shoot a jumpshot; however, prior to releasing the shot A1 does a small hop step without taking a dribble. All of this is part of A1's "gathering" process--then A1 shoots the shot.

Is this "gathering" process a travel violation? If not, then when a similar type of "gathering" occurs in boys/men games it is called a travel. I have yet to observe that it is called a travel in girls/women games--at neither the NF, NCAA, nor WNBA levels.

Which led me to wonder: do we as an officials community tend to treat such a 'gathering' step with bias--i.e., allowing it on the female side, yet penalizing it on the male side? I can honestly say that in this past NF season when I observed it to occur I did not whistle it a violation--neither did my partners. OK, so I admit I have become an "enabler" to this issue.:eek:

There are at least four other types of biases that inhere with girls/women games on various violations that are also not called---but let us focus first on the above-cited one first.

Thanks in advance for any input/guidance.

I'd like to hear the other four biases. As far as the OP, I dunno. I haven't really paid that much attention. I call the obvious travels and don't call the ones that aren't.

Man, we talk a LOT about travels around here.

@ BD Ref: ok thanks for your input--the 'gathering' motion is quite obvious anytime you watch a female player prep for a jumper, I am beginning to think that calling it a violation has been "lost in the ether'' due to our collective enabling of it-- and yes, 'travel' call discrepancies are a common item of discourse.

I haven't noticed a particular difference, but I haven't been looking for it or logging it either.

When it's a travel, it's called. When it's a form of a (legal) jump stop, it isn't.

@ BR_the "legal jumpstop" consideration is not in effect here as there was no dribbling action that preceded the jump shot. In the case I'm describing the series of actions is: catch ball, make a small hop step [i.e., 'gather'], then shoot. Thanks for you input tho.

You cannot catch the ball then hop. I don't know what you mean by 'gather', but you can't gather the ball once it has already been caught.

What you are describing is a travel.

This really depends on what your definition of gathering is. You called a hop step gathering so I'm lost at what your point is.

@ DAD thanks for the input: Pls let me clarify--and hopefully not make it more obtuse---the small "hop step" motion taken after the ball has been caught is what I am talking about.

The "gather" term was the wording I used to describe the cumulative actions of: 1) receiving the pass, and then, 2) preparing to shoot the ball (which often includes: re-posturing the body for the shot, getting feet set, and ball re-positioned). However, for female players their "gather" also frequently includes a small hop-step just prior to releasing the shot--without a prior dribble action.

It is this small hop-step that is wrapped up into the cumulative action of shooting by female players that I am questioning---I see this hop-step ignored by officials (i.e., not called a travel--which ostensibly it is a travel). This is what has led me to believe that we officials are "enablers" of this action by female players.

I will ask some female ref colleagues if they concur with my observations.

The perceived bias may be due to the fact that the girls do this move more than the boys. You see it hundreds of times during girls games but not as much in the boys and you get the funny look travels called.

You'll see this more called more at lower levels as they dont usually leave their feet before they catch the pass.

Yep, as the players get older they'll be taught to step into the catch instead of catching and then stepping.

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Lots of variables here:

- I don't see it called more in guys games than girls here. If anything the other way but I think its because guys can be more dynamic on the catch so they can muddle the timing of actually trapping the catch and leaving the floor. That may be related to the discrepancy your seeing in the distance covered on the hop and what officials notice?

- When have they actually caught and secured the ball it may be in your judgement the catch is finalized and then they hop it may be the judgement of other officials they are still securing the catch when the hop starts.

- How many feet are on the ground post catch and pre jump. Technically if only 1 foot is in contact with the ground when the catch in finalized and then they can hop to 2 and shoot if they don't pivot.

In Kansas Ref's defense, I have seen and observed this same inconsistency. And it has bothered me, too. I know it's technically a travel, but it's not obvious and generally no one from the opposing bench is screaming "travel, travel!" (probably because they have girls that do it, too), so my tendency is to let it go. Gosh does the place go nuts when you waive off a 3 from the corner because of this call. And it's like three seconds....once you call it, the Pandora's Box is open.

On the other hand, we're probably re-enforcing bad habits in girls' basketball.

This would be a good candidate for an NFHS POE. But it won't be a POE if the committee isn't concerned, and I don't think they are.

You can "jump stop" while MOVING or dribbling. No one catches the ball with only one foot on the floor while not moving.

If the player catches the ball with both feet on the floor and then jumps and lands and then shoots -- yes, that's traveling. I see it called all the time. I didn't think that was what you were asking.

I call this a travel every time I see it. A player cannot catch the ball and then step into the shot. That's an unfair advantage and I don't care how wide open they are.

Travels in mens and womens game not called when stepping into jumper
 

On the men's side, I often see

Most often in Men's game: Right foot (pivot foot) on floor and left foot in air while catching the ball and stepping into the shot. Left foot lands. Right foot comes up and comes down. Shot. I rarely see this travel called at HS or college level even though the pivot foot came up and came down. I could start calling this and feel good about myself for calling the middle school games I would work by the rule book.

Most often in Women's game: Both feet on floor. Catch ball. Step forward with both feet, sometimes simultaneously in a "hop". Shot. Sometimes a travel is called.

In Utah both boys and girls do this. I called one or two but soon realized no one else called it and I was seen as picking on players.

If the defense is close and I hop to a new spot mere inches away then shoot I have disadvantaged myself and give the defense time to block the shot. Bunny hop hurts the player. I think it is not called because it didnt allow the offense and advantage. It is clearly a travel to have the ball, jump to a new spot and then shot. NO one calls it in this state. I was wondering the same thing and came up with the theory its really hurting the offense and gave no advantage so no one calls it..

Thanks for bring this up before I did.

Now if they are inside the 3 arc and jump behind it that I will call and dont get much grief.

Happy Easter everyone!

This bunny hope, or step in, is a big advantage to the shooter. It helps them put more arc under their shot and I guarantee you their shot will be worse without it.

For all of you accomplished officials, I sincerely thank you for your well-considered inputs/comments on my issue. Let me first say that it was re-assuring to see other officials had observed the same issue and I will say that going forward in my officiating vocation I will aim to implement the proper "travel call" when said action occurs.

For the record, I did speak with three female basketball officials--all who do it at the NF level--and they collectively said that they wished more officials would call this a "travel" on the girls/women's side instead of "kicking the rule". They said that girls do this "gathering" action in order to gain more force on their shot (which several of you had already postulated); however, the action is nevertheless a "travel". I then asked them "why" they had never /seldom called it a travel since they were also females who could ostensibly "identify" with other females? They responded by saying something to the effect of "wishing they had the temerity to make that call" despite the cultural bias towards kicking the rule.

Thanks a ton for all of you'alls comments.

This is just not true. The rule is the same whether coming off a dribble or catching a pass. I think we need to know that it's actually a travel before addressing why it's not being called. Based on what's been described, I question the rules knowledge of those who are saying it's a travel they just don't have the guts to call.

What exactly does this move entail and why is it a travel?

@ ADAM: please peruse posts # 8, 11, 13, for the described actions for which a 'travel' is deliberated. Thanks for your critical assay of said actions.

Those posts don't really tell me what you're seeing, other than that you think if a player wasn't dribbling they are not allowed to do a "jump stop" after the catch. Since that assumption is wrong (there is no rule difference between a player gathering a dribble and a player catching a pass), I'm left with the assumption that what is being done is legal.

If a player catches a pass with a foot on the floor, she may jump off that foot as long as she lands on both simultaneously.
If she catches the pass with both feet in the air, she may jump of the first foot that lands and then land on both simultaneously.

These are the plays I'm perceiving when you talk about a little "hop" in the set up for the shot. It's perfectly legal, which provides a different explanation for why it's not being called.

I know what you r talking about. Two handed catch with two feet or toes on ground and short hop to shoot. It is travel. If it is done quick enough maybe official can consider player is not holding ball. It is travel but I avoid calling it unless you, my partner, are calling it on other end. Or, player is so slow that everybody on planet sees the travel.

The way I viewed the play based on the description was a player with two feet on the floor catches a pass. After the catch of the ball, they then step with one foot, then step with the other, and shoot. Essentially the first step establishes pivot foot, then once that foot is lifted and set down we have a travel.

Of course if they are stepping into this as they are receiving the ball, this is probably legal but based on what foot becomes the pivot. I watch how players receive passes and step into shots during warmups to help get me engaged.

I would have thought so except for this completely inaccurate post.

@Adam: no one else here seemed to be confused by the explanatory posts--perhaps you just simply disagree with the threads' concensus--which is fine also.

I don't think anyone really understood what you were asking. Is my description above an accurate description of the movement you are seeing?

I'm not sure what you're trying to get out of this thread. I don't see a consensus, and Adam is just clarifying that this may or may not be a travel as described. Asking for help on an arbitrary(No video and not exactly clear play) call just leaves it open for interpretation. Women/men's basketball is officiated differently. They even have different rules at the college/NBA level. HS is probably the most similar but still has different philosophies on what you should or shouldn't call.

About the only sure conclusion I can come to is they aren't called the same way.

I stopped reading your post after seeing "catch" and "hop" step. I just pictured that you were talking about a player catching ball with two feet on the ground and then hopping right or left just after the catch. I went back and read the rest of the post and i can certainly see the confusion. I just don't use the term "gather."

I think i guessed right on the move you were trying to describe but you really didn't say, (i don't think), if both feet were on the ground at time of catch or just one or none. As Adam points out that does matter. Travel rules apply when end a dribble or gain control of ball from pass. thx

This thread reminds me of potato's infamous "Hot Step" thread: https://forum.officiating.com/basket...tml#post886829

You have yet to adequately describe the move with anything resembling rule-book terms.

One last time for clarity's sake
 

Hope this clarifies--

A1 (male or female player--though the "action" is most egregious when done by female shooters):

1. A1 catches ball from a pass---both feet are on the court when ball is initially caught. No dribble is done.

2. A1 then hops on both feet (moving them forward from "point A" to "point A + 1)"----this is the small 'hop' I referred to initially. No dribble is done.

3. A1 then lands on both feet @ point A+1--after the small hop, then bends knees and winds up elbows in preparation for release of shot (though the feetwork is what I'm focusing on here, OK). No dribble is done.

4. A1 then jumps and releases the ball for a try (jump-shot).

hop = physically and momentarily leaves the floor for those few milliseconds--no toes touching at all.

I have observed that this action is always called a "travel" in boys/men---yet very very seldom called a "travel" in girls games. This was the key issue I requested help for. Is this a bona fide travel or no?

You're saying that a player caught the ball with both feet on the floor, left the floor and returned them both to the floor?

Don't be so clear, Rich!

All you need is 2 and 3. The rest is irrelevan, especially your reference to a dribble. Just too many red herrings in your story. This is a travel, but there could be a number of reasons it's not called. Might be the catch is too close to the jump it's too difficult to tell. Might be officials are being told through evaluations not to call it. Might be they don't want to make girls cry.

I know I call it when I see it.

Ha,ha...when the girls start crying they don't stop...(I think u have daughter too). I don't have any issues seeing travel....BUT, as I have said before, it doesn't do the game any good if I'm the only one calling it. As a crew, we've got to get the travels going around a defender and in the post. The millimeter hop on perimeter doesn't give an advantage but it is travel. I've told kids in warmups not to take the hop. That's usually worked for me.

Ah Sweet Mystery Of Life (Jeanette MacDonald And Nelson Eddy) ...
 

With high school girls, I am more likely to see this in warmups, but it doesn't seem to carry over into the actual game, even when I'm looking for it. Very odd. Very perplexing.

36 posts to figure out what we all knew. What was described is a travel and it doesn't get called for any number of different reasons.

@BDR: ;) we dissect and critique all manner of violations, interpretational gray-areas, and asundry on here... what do you expect from officiating "geeks" like us...:) ?
How's your off-season reffing going? I pray that your men's wreck leagues reffing is going OK.

*:) hey Rick & Camron: I forgot to mention that A1 had her anti-gravity Nike hyperdunk shoes on.

I've seen this happen hundreds of times over the years ....its is liken to a "crow hop" that baseball outfielders use to create more momentum for a long throw after a catch or they field a batted ball hit to them

I've also seen it used by basketball player to start a dribble move after a catch ...this I always call traveling

However....
As for shooting ...... My mind's eye catches the movement but I rarely call it anymore (I will if they don't go thru with the shot --- and I'm not describing a jump stop but a catch and a movement-- while holding the ball after a catch...)

But I've not observed a gender difference

Don't make this harder than it needs to be. Concentrate on the pivot and that will tell you if its a travel or not. Just like any other travel situation, you need to know whatth pivot foot is. If it is lifted and returned while in control of the ball, it's a travel. More times than not in the situation you are describing, the hop and the catch is one motion and the pivot isn't touching the floor when the catch/gather is made which makes it a legal move. That's all there is to it. Make that determination and move on to more important stuff.

When I was at Verne Harris camp years ago, this play was discussed. Verne's answer was he'd rather miss a travel call than call a good move a travel. If this is so prevalent in your area, what are the top officials calling. If it's prevalent, I'd say it's probably not a travel. Don't try to be the only Sherriff in town to male this call unless you are content with the games you are working.

Not really, I've had a lot of coaches complain about what is essentially a jump stop because it wasn't done off a dribble. The OP's completely incorrect assessment why the jump stop rule didn't apply led me to believe he was doing the same thing.

His further clarification after my questions tells me his previous references to the jump stop rule, while utterly and totally wrong, were simply irrelevant to what he was seeing.

*OK, but at this juncture we are not really concerned about "what top officials in my area are calling" ---but moreso in the correctness or incorrectness of the call. I think a so-called "top official" can also be prone to errors no?

Interesting comment from the camp you went to though--in terms of the clinician telling you'all to pass on a travel; reminds me of how at times some refs call "travel" on a simple 'euro-step' layup move.

Not sure of how you are conjecturing on whether or not this call is made will impact my varsity schedule tho?

*In contrast, I have mostly observed it due to gender--but ok, thanks for you input.