NCAAM 10-second violation application...
 

On a straight forward inbounds play (full shot clock), are the officials trained to call the violation at 20 on the clock or 19?

I ask because the clock showing 20 can mean anything from 9.1 or 10 seconds have elapsed. 19 assures a full 10 seconds.

It was called near the end of the Maryland/Hawaii game with, I believe, 20 showing on the shot clock.

By rule, when 20 seconds shows on the shot clock.

20. At 20 on shot clock, 10 seconds has elapsed.

When the clock first turns to 20, it's actually at 20.9.....

Am I crazy or has this changed the 10-second violation to a 9.1 second violation?

Who cares what the time actually is, that is how the rule is enforced.

And that is assuming you stop the clock perfectly at the 20 second mark.

Peace

It's a full 10 seconds when the shot clock hits 20. A second has elapsed when it goes from 30 to 29 (i.e. showing "30" means clock has between 30.0 & 29.1 seconds left).

I don't believe that is correct. Most clocks that I have seen that show tenths of a second, if you look at the time on the game clock that is displayed to everyone in the facility before you have less than a minute remaining, when it shows seven minutes and 59 seconds remaining, and you look at the display on the timekeepers console, it may say that there is seven minutes and 59.6 seconds, or whatever. I think that is the point the original poster is trying to make.

When I pay attention, I notice the game clock immediately goes from ##:00 to ##:59. The shot does not immediately go from 30 to 29 when it starts.

I think it is 10 but as someone else said its just a number. It can actually be even less. The shot clock starts on the touch not possession.
(Having some timing issues in the northern Iowa v a and m game)

Ok. Having never worked with a shot clock before, can someone tell me if the console at the table shows tenths of a second on the operator's console at the table?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I thought the game clock started on the touch, but shot clock was on possession.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

On the touch by either team when throw in involved. Shot clock starts.

What about jump ball?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't think so. On a clock without tenths, it will change from 30 to 29 instantaneously

Have you ever worked in a gym where the clock can show 0 without the horn going off?

Possession. Control is word used in rules. Reset when team controls a rebound or team controls a jump ball or team control changes. During throwin shot clock starts on touch.

That's true on game clocks that will show tenths of seconds when under a minute. Non-NBA shot clocks do not have that luxury, so they are programmed to display what I said earlier. Otherwise, there could not be an immediate horn when the shot clock goes to zero.

Are they programmed differently than game clocks?

Yes.

Perfect. Thanks.

.....which works because when the clock shows 30 it is actually 30.9.

This is a non-issue.

Not really because the clock - on a reset - would go to 30.0.

However...as was said in response to the OP, the violation takes place when the shot-clock reads :20 (on a possession that begins at :30).

Here's the rule in a nutshell: Take what's on the shot-clock when a throw-in takes place in the backcourt after a made FG, foul, violation (other than OOB) or time out and subtract 10. That's when the violation occurs.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

And, while a team has the full ten seconds when the shotclock starts at 30, they might have a slight bit less when the shotclock is at, say 25 after a TO request (and we will use 15 as the marker).

When a GAME clock shows 25, there is really 25.0 - 25.9 on the clock (most modern clocks; there are still some around that work like shot clocks). That's why on a clock without 1/10s, the clock shows zero a second before the horn sounds.

When a SHOT clock shows 25, there is really 24.1 - 25.0 on the clock. That's why the horn sounds instantly when the clock hits zero.

And, I don't think (most) consoles show 1/10s for the shot clock; many do for the game clock (even if the scoreboard doesn't).

Got it. I've never worked with a shot clock, but this makes total sense and is exactly the answer I was hoping to get.

This is also why they wait for 15 in the NBA. Since the last five seconds use tenths, then the ones digit for the final second will show 0 (with that tenths digit) and so the shot clock goes to 23 (imagine a tenths digit following that number) immediately when it starts. Without using tenths at the end of the shot clock, as in NCAA, it makes more sense for the number shown in the final second to be 1, so the clock doesn't drop from 30 to 29 until a second has elapsed following the clock starting.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

Out of curiosity, is it possible that the shot clock and the 10 second count don't align if a defender tips the inbound pass? As has been established, the shot clock starts upon being touched by any player, however per 9.3, "The 10-second count shall begin when a player legally touches the ball in that team's backcourt except on a rebound or jump ball."

My gut tells me the counts would start simultaneously in this case and that the wording of the rule is a little ambiguous. "A player" could refer to either team, but the phrase "that team's backcourt" could refer to the backcourt of the player that touched the ball or the backcourt of the team on which the count is being made. As a non-NCAA guy, I'd love the clarification.

The other question I have is whether a visible count is still appropriate at any time by NCAA rule. In researching the rules for the above commentary, I noted that 2.9 indicates the shot clock should be used to administer the 10-second backcourt count unless there is no shot clock visible. I guess my concern is that between teams playing at this high of a level, you could have situations where the backcourt count doesn't start with the shot clock at 30 seconds and it may be difficult for the covering official to check the shot clock. If the ball is deflected into the backcourt by a defender and retrieved without pressure, the T can glance up and determine the clock has XX seconds remaining when the ball was touched by the offense in the backcourt. If the defense is tightly pressing, the covering official might not be able to immediately glace up to the shot-clock. Would a visible 10-second be appropriate in that case? Would it be incumbent on the lead to check the shot clock so the T&C could focus on the action in the backcourt?

When the ball is legally touched, the shot clock is to start, no matter who touched it. That is how the rule is written.

Peace

Any official can call a 10-second violation. I did it from the C this season.

I get that and am on board with that. But what about the 10-second count? When does that technically start? A1 inbounding after a made shot. The pass is deflected by B1 (shot clock starts), ball bounces across court for 2 seconds when it is finally picked up by A2? Does the 10-second count start when the pass was deflected by B1 or when it was picked up by A2?

When the ball is legally touched in-bounds on a throw-in. When the ball is possessed after a try. When Team Control changes on a steal or turnover.

When it was deflected by B. Also, a visible count is used only when shot clock is off. Lead may well have the best look at times. Anybody can get it.

I'm on board with this as well. But is it a standard mechanic to have L check the shot clock on 10-second counts if the ball is deflected into the backcourt and closely contested by B? Or is it something that is more of a pregame discussion? For example, "Team B really likes to press and will fight for every loose ball tonight. If we have a ball deflected into the backcourt T&C will need to watch play closely, and T will need to help with any 10-second counts."

From my own experiences so far, it has yet to become a problem. The T is going to take a peek at the shot clock when the ball gains BC status on a deflection. We also have to check the shot clock to make sure it hasn't been reset.

This is what I assumed and what makes sense to me, however my confusion stems from the following situation that I can't reconcile. A1 inbounds the ball from baseline of his frontcourt following a foul that caused the shot clock to be reset. A1 passes toward the backcourt and B1 while in (a) A's frontcourt or (b) A's backcourt deflects it over A2's head into the backcourt where it is retreived by A2. She shot clock properly starts when B1 deflects the pass. When does the 10-second count start in situations a and b.

Please don't take this as being argumentative or difficult. I trust you guys know what you are talking about, but I'm struggling with how the rule is written. The issue for me is that the NCAA rules define when the 10-second count begins, whereas the NFHS rules simply require team control of a ball in the backcourt and doesn't dictate when the count begins.

A. When it is touched/retrieved by A2, 10 count begins. That is first touch by player in BC.

B. When it is deflected by B. That is first touch in A's BC.

That is a situation that needs to be pre-gamed. The shot clock would start immediately and the 10-second count would start when the ball gains BC status. I'm sure the defensive HC would be jumping up and down at the 20-second mark.

So in A the 10-second count shouldn't start until A touches the ball in the backcourt in NCAA, but in NFHS it should start once the ball touches the backcourt (team "control of the ball which is in his/her backcourt")?

NCAA. When A touches it 10 count begins under your example. In NfHS the ten count would start when A2 retrieved the ball. That is when TC established in BC. There are other threads on this.

Then you do not get it, because it was stated that the violation takes place when the shot clock read 20 (not including timeout or any other exception to the rule using the shot clock). When anyone touches the ball starts the shot clock.

This was kind of made clear earlier in this thread.

Peace

He changed the play to a FC throwin by A, touched by B in A's FC and retrieved by A2 in A's BC. The shot clock starts when the ball is touched by B. The 10 count will not start until the ball is touched in the BC.

I get the violation occurs when the clock reads 20 if the shot clock and the 10-second count start simultaneously. When I stated "I get that and am on board with that", I was referring to the shot clock starting when the ball is legally touched by any player. That is pretty much a no exceptions point that I get.

My point is that the 10-second count and shot clock don't always start at the same time. The crux of my confusion is whether or not the 10-second count starts against team A when the ball is touched by any player (A or B) in A's backcourt. Is the simple touching of the ball by A or B in A's backcourt when A has team control sufficient to start the count. If A has established frontcourt status with the ball, does a pass deflected by B into the backcourt that is subsequently touched (not possessed) by B cause the 10-second count to start or does A have to touch it in the backcourt? If you say A has to touch it before starting a 10-second count, then how can it be that the 10-second count starts when B deflects a pass from A while inbounding following a made basket?

Your getting things complicated by changing the play back and forth. Also, forget team control for the moment.

1. A throw in from A's backcourt is tipped by B1 in A's BC. The shot clock and the -10 second count for A starts on Bs touch. A player legally touched the ball in A's BC. When the clock hits 20-violation. Even if seconds went by before A actually touched ball. Do you have that down?

Fed is 10 second starts once the ball has BC status if there is still team control. Most guys do not start the count then, however.

My response was to his comments to me. Nothing had changed at that time.

Peace

It does in college. That is all you need to know. ;)

Again the college rule is different. If the ball starts in the FC and goes to the BC, you have a different issue don't you think? You would not be using the shot clock and it reading 20 as the standard now would you?

We can either count with our arm like we always did or note the time on the clock when the violation would take place.

Peace

Not sure I would advocate using a visible count on this type of play. The only listed exception to using the shot clock for backcourt counts is when there is no shot clock.

I have talked with several individuals about this and there are some that would and others that wouldn't and others that would. Again, we are talking about a rare situation. Not many times where the shot clock starts then you have a gap and the ball in the backcourt for the 10 second count. Very rare and I have yet to see that situation where the ball would get stuck there for some time.

Peace

This is where I was trying to go with the conversation and appreciate everyone's input. I don't have any experience working NCAA games and thus my reading of the rule book is the basis of my knowledge. I don't have the benefit of having the same background that tells me how to interpret what is written that I was looking for from those of you do have that experience.

I agree that the shot clock and 10-second count will start simultaneously the vast majority of the time and that is where this thread started. I may have been better served by starting a new thread as I was wanting to learn when to start the count in situations other than the basic A is inbounding the ball after a made basket and how to handle it when they don't start simultaneously. In the end, I think what led me to complicate this was the additional language in 9.10 that covers when to start the 10-second count despite 2.9 indicating that the shot clock is utilized to administer the 10-second count. Thank you all again for the feedback.

It is my understanding that the shot clock and game clock start on touch but the 10 second count starts with control. If so the shot clock and 10 second count could be very different.

Completely incorrect in NCAA (on 99% of throw-ins). Read the entire thread.

I believe the question Boomer wants to ask is what do we do on a throw-in that's touched by the defense first in the frontcourt and then bounds into the back court. Would the 10-second count start when the ball hits the backboard or when Team A touches or possesses the ball in the backcourt.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

You are getting to the heart of my questions. I'm trying to get a better understanding of what the criteria is for starting the 10-second count and how to administer the count if the shot clock and 10-second count don't both start at 30. Here is a bullet point recap of what I feel like I've learned thus far:

• When inbounding the ball, contact with any player starts the shot clock and the 10-second count if said player is in the backcourt of the team in possession.

• When the ball being inbounded is deflected into the backcourt by B who is in the front court, the shot clock starts and the 10-second count starts when the ball is touched by A in the backcourt.

• When the ball is in play in the frontcourt and is deflected into the backcourt by B, the shot clock continues and the 10-second count starts when the ball is touched by A in the backcourt.

• When the 10-second count and the shot clock start simultaneously, the 10-second count is administered via the shot clock and it is a violation if the ball has not been advanced before the shot clock shows 20 seconds.

• If the 10-second count is started after the shot clock shows less than 30 seconds, the shot clock can still be utilized to administer 10-second count. Alternatively a visible count is acceptable (required if the shot clock is turned off or not visible).

Where I'm still not 100% certain is when the 10-second count starts if A has advanced the ball into the frontcourt and the ball is then then deflected by B into the backcourt and is touched by B (or an official if it makes any difference) in the backcourt.

The plays in red are the same -- start the 10-second count when A touches the ball.

I think a count is ONLY allowed under 30-seconds (true in NCAAW,; not sure in NCAAM)

Here's a relevant NCAAM case play (with a typo corrected) (the same ruling applies in NCAAW):

A.R. 206. Team A has the ball for a throw-in under its own basket with
15 seconds on the shot clock. The ball is passed inbounds (1) into Team A’s
frontcourt where it is touched by a Team B player and then continues into
Team A’s backcourt where it is touched by a Team A player with 12 seconds
remaining on the shot clock, or (2) into Team A’s backcourt where it is first
touched by any player in the backcourt.
RULING 1: The shot clock starts on the initial touch by the Team
B player, but the backcourt count does not start until the Team A
player touches the ball in the backcourt with 12 seconds on the shot
clock. There will be a 10 second backcourt violation with 2 seconds
remaining on the shot clock if the ball fails to gain frontcourt status
in Team A’s continuous control.
2: When any player touches the ball on a throw-in, the shot clock
shall start. When the first touch occurs in Team A’s backcourt,
the 10 second backcourt count shall also begin. There will be a
10 second backcourt violation with 5 seconds remaining on the
shot clock when the ball fails to gain frontcourt status in Team A’s
continuous control.