Had my first girls game of the year last night. Wasn't expecting it (thought the schedule said all boys games on my court). When we found out I turned to my partner and told him, "We gotta watch out for jewelry and know who has the arrow."

Sure enough, after the captains meeting a girl comes to us with her newly peirced ears asking if she can play with them in or tape them up. I was about to tell her to take them out, then remembered our discussion here and instead only told her she could not play with them in. Her call, she took them out.

Game begins, toss goes up, it's tapped and two opponents immediately tie it up. Every time I read the note in the rule book about this I figured I'd go 10 years without ever seeing it. O well. We jumped it between the two girls who had tied it up, and off we went.

The game went just about as you'd expect--lopsided blowout. Mercy rule is in effect. Winning coach comes to us at halftime and asks us to just swallow the whistle for the other team and let 'em play.

It was kind of hard to switch gears back to boys ball for the next game.

I feel your pain!
Your quote reminded me of a situation I had last week in a soccer game. During the pregame check a girl has earrings in and I let her know that I'm not going to allow it. So about 5 minutes into game I first notice her again as she is near the play. She has her ears taped, top and bottom, as she had multiple peircings. I hit the whistle the next time the ball goes out of play and go talk to her, I say, "I told you about the earrings." She replies, "I took them out," and peels the tape off on one side to show me. Sure enough, nothing there! I said, "OK," and on we went with the game.
I had never seen a girl tape her ears after taking the jewelry out! It was a new one for me.

Pls advice how to switch gear back to tougher games after doing a few easy games.
In the small city where I ref, the culture is All Refs Ref All Kinds of Games.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chin Ref
[B]Pls advice how to switch gear back to tougher games after doing a few easy games.[B][QUOTE]

Please advise why you think boys Varsity games are tougher than girls games.

RD

Chin Ref,
Every time you walk onto the floor, be ready for the most difficult game that you have ever seen.
At the very beginning of each game plan on working much harder than you have ever worked.
Bring this thought to each game, and you will be ready when the ball goes up.
mick

To begin with they never go above the rim.

To begin with they never go above the rim. [/B][/QUOTE]

On the other hand, they spend more time on the floor.

All games are difficult to do well, but for different reasons depending on the level of play and the skills of the players. Blow-outs are very draining, close games require a high level of consistency and self-confidence, Varsity boys are much faster and more sneaky, JH girls as mick said spend a lot of time on the floor.

You switch gears by always spending five minutes or more before every single game reminding yourself what you can expect and warming up the appropriate body and brain parts. For JH girls, you don't need to review the new BI and GT stuff, but be sure you're up to date on held balls! If your next game is a high level JV girls team, get your ankles warmed up and ready for lots of turnovers. And so forth. Make it a conscious practice to ALWAYS spend five minutes, or more if you can, setting your switches and either revving or idling your engines so that you will be ready at the toss for what ever happens next.

As Juulie knows, I usually do this at halftime, or maybe after the game.

Hey, if you're going to cash those checks you get for doing Girls games then please do everyone a favor and give it your all. The one BIG problem I see here in the Chicago Area is the lack of interest and hussle from refs who do Girls games. It simply makes me sick to hear them complain about how boring the games are compared to Boys games.

I gotta agree. Last March, I was watching the girls' state tournament, sitting in the section of the stands reserved for refs. It got pretty rough, listening to the refs laughing about how few girls' games they had done that season, and how much they felt like fish out of water. I had to go home and brush my teeth to get the bad taste out of my mouth.

Jewel,
That sounds like they were poorly attempting an explanation of why they were in the stands and not on the floor, nothing more.
mick

I don't think anybody in this thread is saying that an official should give a poor effort in a girls game. But my experience has been that it takes less effort to call a great game during a girls game than it takes to call a great game during a boys game. They are just different animals in this part of the country and the level of play in girls ball is substantially lower (in general, although there a couple of very good girls teams).

Well, get your barf bag, b/c around here 95% of girls games are as exciting as watching grass grow. One of my goals is to get PA Coach to travel to MA, so I can work one of his games. :)

Thank you guys for the valuable advice which I'll be working on them.
BTW, I think I have the right attitude that I put in as much effort as possible for whatever the game I ref. I look down upon those guys who dont provide the best possible service to the games. I hate to say that I'm associating with quite a number of those guys in my area. They even see me as weird.

Chuck is right, while we all strive to do the best job possible in every game, some games are better than others. As long as we are human, we will differentiate.

Generally (repeat, GENERALLY), the boys games are played at a different level. What that means is, aside from the fundamental things we always do, there are different things we focus on in girls games (call selection, game and clock awareness, etc). But, most of the time, the games will likely not be as "exciting".

I think those of you quick to express "outrage" over attitudes towards girls games are not being completely honest with yourselves or the people on this board.

The bottom line in the end is, while we expect the same effort, officiating styles between boys and girls games will not always be the same. Nor should they.

One great thing I find about girls games is that the overall atmosphere can be ten times as exciting as a boys game, because the players, coaches, and fans, are sometimes way more into it.

These were the guys who were in the stands because they had just finished their tournament games for that day. In fairness, one of the guys who worked the final was not at all like that, and has a very good attitude about the whole thing. The other one....

Wow, guess I touched a nerve
 

I agree with much that has been said. An official should give every game his or her best effort, boys or girls. What was so ironic with this game is that we had all of the stereotypical things we've discussed: jewelry issues, held balls, and a blowout.

Chin Ref, as for switching gears, you just gotta go out expecting every game to be difficult. If it turns out to be easy, then you can adjust. Then again, every game requires some adjusting. But going from an easy game to a hard game seems to take the most.

In this case, the adjustment was particularly acute because the winning team's coach (who is the league assigner of officials) asked us to "swallow the whistle" for the second half, which we did. We only called two fouls on that team, both frustration fouls that had to be called. So, in addition to adjust to a different level of play, we also had to adjust our mindsets back to calling the fouls and violations instead of letting them go.

I stand by my original assertion: with girls ball, you gotta keep on your toes. You're more likely to have unusual situations arise in girls ball, like the held ball right off the jump.

Qualified, not lack of interest.
 

Could not agree more, that is why I do not do them. ;)

The reason that is, because many officials do not like them. That is why many officials I know refuse to do them. That is also why Boy's assignors will not give you a boy's schedule if you are doing an abuntant of girl's games. If it bothers you that folks complain about them, then do not listen. Because just like anything in life, folks have the right to a choice.

Personally I think the bigger problem around here is the fact that they will let anyone do these games. I see the absolute worst, out of shape, older officials doing girl's games. Guys that could not handle a Freshman boy's game are officiating Sectionals in Girl's basketball. One of the reasons a future State Champion is allowed to advance to Bloomington on a call from the Lead position waiving off a basket to send the game into overtime. It is not the lack of interest that is the problem in Girl's Basketball.

Peace

Hey Rut.....
 

What happened to Michigan this week against Oregon?

Re: Hey Rut.....
 

Can you say "Quack Attack"? That was one heck of a game.

Re: Hey Rut.....
 

I do not care what happen with Oregon, I only care about what happen with Notre Dame. Oregon will not win their conference. We could go 2-11, as long as that one win is against Ohio State and Notre Dame. And we are also higher ranked than Oregon. So who cares. ;)

Peace

Re: Qualified, not lack of interest.
 

Personally I think the bigger problem around here is the fact that they will let anyone do these games. I see the absolute worst, out of shape, older officials doing girl's games. Guys that could not handle a Freshman boy's game are officiating Sectionals in Girl's basketball. [/QUOTE]

The reason for this, in most cases (not all), is that the assignors are only concerned with putting bodies into games to fill slots (I mean bodies wearing black and white stripes). From the Superintendent to the Principal to the A.D. to the Janitor, no one REALLY cares about girls' sports. Although there have been many girls' programs offered for the past twenty years or so, they are still viewed as "activities" to give the girls something to do (by law). Therefore, referees officiating girls will not really be taken seriously, even the ones that ARE excellent.

This viewpoint is denied, as people want to appear politically correct, but a change of attitude can't be forced or legislated. This overall attitude and image that go with the girls games is a big part of why refs refuse them. Some feel they must ref the boys side to get good games and work up to their fullest potential. On the other hand, there are refs who choose to do girls only, perhaps because there is less pressure and stress involved. I do think there is an underlying, although subtle, negative attitude towards girls (only) refs. The text above is my OPINION only, and I am specifically referring to the Northeast. Other parts of the country may be very different.

I agree.
 

I completely agree with that take on this issue. But I think that if women as a whole support their own sports on the scale of Men's and Boy's sports, the girls might have a bigger interest. I do not think we should apologize for not watching or wanting to participate. One of the reasons that the WUSA folded this past week and the WNBA barely got a blur on the TV. It is clear what basketball officials feel about it here, no one talked about it most of the season. We talked about the NBA Western Conference Finals Game 6 for almost a year after that game took place. Many of the guys that officiate never played when they were in HS, let alone college. Where are all the women that played translate into officiating? Or better yet, coaching? And we are just starting to see the coaches numbers go up. If I am not mistaken, not a single women has coached an WNBA Championship team.

Peace

Re: Re: Qualified, not lack of interest.
 

I'd guess that it's not so much the part of the country, as the school administration. We have a great girls bball team here in our area, which gets LOTS of community support, and budget and the best refs (which they need and deserve) because they are strongly supported by their school district, and have been for years. Next high school district over, they're lucky if the five starters have five matching uniforms.

...rarely do the Freshman boys "go above the rim" either...does that make their games "tougher" than two quality Varsity Boys teams going at each other?

I say yes! They can be.

My point is this:
It's "tougher" to make a girls game look good...
It's "tougher" to see all the ratty play...
It's "tougher" to have to explain all the situations that lower skilled players seem to get into...
It's "tougher" to have to officiate with a sometimes out of shape, lower level official (i.e. Boys Frosh games)...
It's "tougher" to "get up for these games"...

I have done State Semi-final Basketball...and I have done Freshman boys basketball...Trust me! IMO the Freshman boys basketball was "tougher", for the above reasons. (Well, OK, maybe the State games are tougher physically and mentally but maybe you get my point on the different "toughness" of each game.)Hmmmm, did I just contradict myself? :)

In conclusion, I agree with JRut...if you don't like doing Girls Basketball...Don't do them! That dosen't necessarily make you a bad person...I know, because I don't do them either! ;)

RD

Girls aren't the only ones with earrings anymoew
 

This summer I was involved with an adult league of former college/pro players. We had to remind them each night to lose the diamond earrings and gold chains. Women are used to this. Guys aren't.

Re: Girls aren't the only ones with earrings anymoew
 

Damian,
Why do you not allow that for Adults? ...League rule?
We permit it in our area.
mick

Geez, this old debate again?

Yes, there are some differences between girls HS ball and boys HS ball. I don't think officiating one is any harder than the other... they both have components that are easier/harder than the other.

I officiate both. Some guys only officiate boys basketball. Some of them don't have time to do both...others prefer the speed of the boy's game - in my opinion, those are valid reasons.

Other guys think they are "above" girls basketball. To me, that's silly but no big deal. If that's the way they feel, the girls game is better off without them.

My most enjoyable games last year had the following components: Packed gym. Close game. Good partner. Didn't matter if it was boys or girls.

Z

These things are what we all hope for. Unfortunately, in many areas -- including my own, you're much more likely to get all three of these in a boys game.

Unfortunately, in many areas -- including my own, you're much more likely to get all three of these in a men's game.
;)

In my city, these 3 situations will only happen in an International School where they host the annual tournament inviting overseas HS teams to compete. That's the only chance I have the full enjoyment of refing-once a year.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chin Ref
[B]In my city, these 3 situations will only happen in an International School where they host the annual tournament inviting overseas HS teams to compete. That's the only chance I have the full enjoyment of refing-once a year.
[QUOTE]


I am guessing you are referring to Hong Kong International school's December tournament. Have you reffed St. Mary's High School (from Tokyo)? I know they go there every year. They are one of the best teams here in Tokyo. How did the Kong Kong schools compare to St. Mary's?

OC, you're damn right, how do you know?? I dont recall if I have done the St. Mary's. Generally, the skill level of the teams are not too far apart as most of the players are the children of the expatriates from overseas to those particular cities. The tournament plays the regular rules instead of most of the local games play running clock. I have fun out of it.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by oc
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Chin Ref
In my city, these 3 situations will only happen in an International School where they host the annual tournament inviting overseas HS teams to compete. That's the only chance I have the full enjoyment of refing-once a year.

Quote:

I am guessing you are referring to Hong Kong International school's December tournament. Have you reffed St. Mary's High School (from Tokyo)? I know they go there every year. They are one of the best teams here in Tokyo. How did the Kong Kong schools compare to St. Mary's?

I teach at an International school in Japan. I saw the HKIS tourney on St. Mary's schedule. I heard good things about it from their coach. My cross-country team competed against HKIS a few years ago when they came to Tokyo for a tournament-from what I have seen and heard HKIS is one of the better International schools. I would like to ask you some more about bball in HK. Please send me an email

[Edited by oc on Sep 25th, 2003 at 04:15 AM]

Depending upon your area your suggestion may not be possible to implement. I can tell you that in Nevada you have to do both or you get nothing.
I think this is a mistake on the part of the association and its assignors because rather than having someone who is thrilled to be there reffing the girls' game, you will get people with negative attitudes and total apathy for the game.

In many cases the problem is further exacerbated in Northern Nevada by the schools themselves. (Las Vegas does the schedule differently and more intelligently IMO.) They insist on scheduling the GV and BV games back to back at one site. This double-header is preceeded by a jv or frosh game. The other school hosts the remaining three lower level games. They do this to attract bigger crowds for the varsity games.
Since most officials do not like to go to a gym for only one HS game, one crew of three is often given both varsity games. The problem attitude that this creates is "don't run too hard in the girls' game, so we will have energy left for the boys' game."
It also tends to keep the majority of the varsity assignments in a small circle of officials.

My state uses two man crews for all HS regular season. For the first time last year they used three man for the play off tournament. The HS refs bacisally learned as they went along (college guys knew it).

No crew is allowed to ref two varsity games in one day. However, it is common to ref a FR/JV doubleheader.

The idea to have two varsity games back to back in Nevada seems good to me, except for letting the same crew do both games. Also, they could actually alternate the schedule so that one night the boys game is last, and the following time they play, the girls game is last. Then the reluctant refs can "go all out" with the energy they have left from the boys game.

Sounds like your area needs to implement a conditioning program. Doing 3-person mechanics and having to "save themselves" for a second game? Yikes.

Z

I agree that saving yourself for the "real" game deserves to be spread equally between boys and girls. Why not have two crews, though? Crew A could do 1st JV game and then sit, and then do 1st Var, Crew B could do 2nd JV and then sit and 2nd Var. After all that's what the swing players do!

Actually, U.P. here, my partner plays swing, trumpet and vocal, and he doesn't sit out at all.

Juules,
You misunderstood the schedule of games. Allow me to be more specific. When school A plays school B, school A will host three games and so will school B. Let's say school A is designated the home school for this match-up. That means they have the two varsity games. So on a weekday (like a Friday) at school A we would have a GJV @ 3:45PM, GV @ 5:15, and BV @ 7PM. School B would then have the BF, GF, and BJV in some order at the same times at their gym. The order of the GV and BV games never changes (they could flip them, but they don't), but the location and the order of playing the other four games rotates from year to year. For example, one year the BF game may preceed the two varsity games, but the next year it may be the GJV.
Since there are only three games at any one site, you see why your proposed plan would not work? Also many people are not available for that early 3:45 afternoon game!

Now Vegas does things in a much better manner in my opinion.
When two schools meet, they play the boys games at one site and the girls games at the other. They start at 5 and play the freshmen and junior varisty games simultaneously. Each school was built with a main and an auxillary gym, so the jv game is in the main gym and the frosh game is in the smaller gym. The varsity game is then played in the main gym following the jv game.
This allows the officials better travel time after work on a weekday, and lets the assignor send only four officials to a school if he wants. Three of them simply stay and work the varsity game after doing the lower level games two-man.
The assignor can also honor requests to do girls games only under this schedule. I know him personally and he tells me that he does not honor requests to do boys only, but with this line-up he could.
Why is it different in the north and south? Who knows?

You're right, I did misunderstand. We have some schools that do things the way you are describing here.

But what I was thinking of is a school here in the Portland area which is very small, and a long ways from most of the schools they play. Here's how they schedule everyone in. The visiting boys and girls, JV and Varsity (they don't have frosh teams), all pile onto one bus, at about 2 pm, and drive to the school I'm thinking of. JV girls get both locker rooms (visitors in one, home in the other) and then warm up, and their game starts at 3:00. The JV girls go back into their locker rooms at half-time for their "talk" and while they play their second half, JV boys get the locker rooms. When JV girls are finished, they get the locker rooms, JV boys come out onto the floor to warm up and play their first half, starting at 4:30. JV boys get the locker rooms for their half-time, then Varsity girls use it during the JV boys second half. And so on. Varsity girls play at 6:00, boys at 7:30. Anyone that's not playing is in the stands studying or distracting others.

Refs have to either try to juggle into this schedule, or use the bathrooms in the main building. We usually get scheduled in one crew to do the two JV games, and then one crew for Varsity girls, and one crew for Varsity boys. But it could work to use just two crews total.

Juules,
Being in Nevada, we have a number of small schools in the state. They do not field freshmen teams and some do not even have jvs, but most do. When they play, they run the four games exactly as you have stated. We officiate these small school games two-man, and 99% of the time the refs are scheduled in two crews. One crew does the two jv games and the other comes later and works both of the varsity games. Because of the wide open space out here there is significant travel, and so it makes sense to do it this way with the out-of-town small schools. While it is still not the ideal way to handle it, I can understand why these schools are done this way. I only have a real problem with the way the games at the bigger schools, which are in town, are handled. I can't think of any rationale for working a GV/BV doubleheader in town other than greed. It is not like we are severely short of officials and need to do this. Perhaps in years past the association was quite small and the current schedule is a hold-over from then, but I doubt it.

I wish..
 

I really wish that the "powers that be" in Michigan that have decided we need to realign girls and boys basketball seasons so it will be at the same time, could read most of these posts.
In Michigan, pretty much EVERYONE does the girls season from August-December and the boys season from December-March. We don't have to worry about disliking one genders game over another, which game we will coast through, goofy travel times, lack of practice space, or locker room space.
I am not looking forward to the season change, and all of the problems it poses, if it happens before I retire. JMHO

Re: I wish..
 

I am sure you will deal with it like everyone else around the country deals with it. This is not really a problem. I have never heard anyone make a major issue out of practice space or goofy travel times. This is not the things that cause problems. But disliking one gender over the other has nothing to do with the times that the games are played, that is because many officials have a preference. No different when officials advance to the college level. Everyone has some kind of preference for some reason.

And this is a question for both mick and yourself. What are all the football officials doing? Are they doing a lot of basketball during this time? Or do they wait until the girls season is over?

Peace

Re: Re: I wish..
 

Rut,
Girls' frosh, JV, Varsity games are Tuesday and Thursday.
JV Football is on Thursday.
Varsity Football is on Friday night and Saturday afternoon.
We've got plenty of officials U.P. here to handle Thursdays.
mick

I am getting too old.
 

I guess I did not ask this the right way. Are officials willing to do both? I could not stomach doing two different sports at the same time. That is why I have never signed up for volleyball (which the girls play in the fall). I would think that trying to do both would be a bit overwelming at times. I did one game on Thursday and Friday, a double header today, I will be doing a double header tommorrow and for some silly reason I am doing a game on Monday. I know for a fact by Sunday, I will be worn out. I am tired now. I could not see myself doing basketball, then turning around and doing a football game the next day. I am not getting any younger, but these kids stay the same age. ;)

Peace

Re: I am getting too old.
 

Rut,
Football officiating, unless yer the white hat seems, like a stroll in the park; in fact it usually is in the park.
...Let the coaches be verbal, can't hear the fans, a minute or more rest between plays, call a violation... or not. The hardest part has to be finding your bean bag!

Quite a few guys cross-dress U.P. here. Some guys work an afternoon JV football game and stay in that town to work the girls varsity game.

...And it ain't your age that's making you tired, buddy. It's the hours you're keepin'. Priorities are priorities.

mick

Mick,

I was really not talking about the difficulty, but the wear and tear on someone's body to do both. Football really is not that easy. The game is a lot harder on your mind. Many more rules to understand and to think about. And being a white hat, my job is not the hardest on the field. I just report fouls most of the time, I do not always have something myself. But I would think guys would not want to run around on a football field and do the same on a basketball court a day or hours later on a regular basis.

Actually sometimes dealing with coaches can be much harder in football than it ever is in basketball. There are times in a football game you cannot get away from them. So in order to cope and not have hankys flying all over the place, you have to develop your communication skills and your people skills. You can take a lot of heat as a wing for things you do not understand or you did not see. It is not a cake walk by any means.

Peace

JRutledge
 

I agree with you. I had a football rec league game yesterday and was on the winning team's sideline and STILL caught hell all game long. That team was winning 46-0.


The Coaches are right there and you can't get away. Lots of rules and lots of things happening. The Coaches think they have an advantage because they know the key parts (i.e. blocks, movements etc. ) of their plays, so they concentrate on that, while we look at everything. When that key aspect doesn't happen as plan "Hey Ref he's holding, clipping, blocking in the back on and on and on".


Side Note: I had to work a flag game (6-8 yr olds) ALONE for the first half. (First time, so A Fish out of Water) I act like I knew what I was doing and it worked. No penalties the first half, lets get this over.

Typical Michigan Schedule..
 

Here is (what I believe) could be a typical August-November schedule for many Michigan officials in my area, that do 2 sports during the same season. Please remember that these days are all available, but most that I know would be hard pressed to work it all. FED only here.
Monday, Tuesday, Thursday - girls basketball (middle school, JV, varsity)
Wednesday, Thursday, Friday - football (same as above)
Saturday (could be either.)
Typical December - March.
Monday, Wednesday - Volleyball
Tuesday,Thursday, Friday - boys basketball
Saturday - either.
Not everyone can do all of this. It would be way too much for me. This is just what is available.
Mick.. any comments?

Re: Typical Michigan Schedule..
 

Lotsa officials U.P. here.

Wednesdays are open for those interested in religious evenings.
Saturdays are not used except for football.

You forgot XC! ...I'm goin' to Brooklyn in November. ;)
You forgot Hockey nights opposite Boys hoops.
We have <s>cross</s> happy-dressers in each of those.
mick

Re: Re: Typical Michigan Schedule..
 

Oops.. I knew I missed a couple of sports.
We are a little low on football numbers 'round here.

The reason I asked......
 

We have guys that do volleyball as well as football. But in volleyball you are not running constantly and the games go by much faster. But that is still rather rare to see an official commit so much time to both sports. We even have soccer in the fall for the boys, but I hardly know anyone that does both. The time committment is one thing, but the running around several days a week has to be torture at times. And we have not even talked about the mental strain you go thru getting yelled at for several days. Even during the basketball season, I can usually only stand working 3 days a week. One of the reasons I try to only do boys games. Most boy's games are on Tuesday, Friday and Saturday. And that is all varsity. I could work Mondays and Saturday mornings doing JV and Freshman games, but I cannot do that ever week. With all my work committments and officiating schedule, you are exhausted when Sunday comes around. Now during the baseball season I can work 6 days a week and do, but I can almost guarantee half of those games will be cancelled due to weather. And at least in baseball I am not willing to do the same travel as the other sports. Our baseball season starts really in late March, when many the games are cancelled and goes thru the middle of May. The season is really not that long and if you do a lot of games it does not seem that long before it is over. Almost like the football season, short and sweet. But in baseball, half the time you might be on the bases and you are just getting a pay check and not calling or doing much of anything.

I am sure an official can do both on a regular, it just seems harder considering all the factors. But I do not think it would be hard at all for officials to do the same sport for the same amount of time, but split between girl's and boy's games. When I did a baskeball game about a week ago, I had to put my mind back in a basketball state of mind. It took me a couple of minutes to do that in my first game after watching one basketball game. It is such a different mentality because of when you blow the whistle and even your signal mechanics. Had to make sure that I called a block instead of an encroachment foul. ;)

Peace