Spin move. You make the call.... (Video)
 

We talk about what happens at the college level, tell me what you got at the high school level? Yes it matters. ;)

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Peace

I'm calling travel. Very few others would. I'm considering no longer calling these myself as it seems like the entire basketball world wants this to be a legal play....which I'm OK with. I would rather the rule not contradict the game, but whatever.

Many officials think these plays are "too close" to call a travel on, but as I've said, a player RARELY (damn close to never) gathers the ball late enough to make this play legal.

Looks like his right foot was down when he gathered the ball, he picked it up to spin on his left, then put his right foot back down before going up for the shot... travel.

I think it only matters if it happens next week.

Travel

To me it does. :D

Peace

Yes, a travel, but almost never called.

It's a travel...but it's razor close so it would be tough to catch in real time. This player is extremely quick and athletic and is probably capable of pulling it off legally.

One of my pet peeves is getting the ones that are slow and obvious travels. I made it a personal mission last season to call them (HS level) whenever I saw them. Unfortunately, I was on an island. Very few other members of my local assn. would call them (or anywhere in the state that I could find) so I abandoned it this season. It's an uphill battle for a hill that I'm not willing to die on. When in Rome...:(

When is the last time you saw this move, slowed it down, and found it to be legal?

As a player, it is awkward and unnatural to "delay" the gather long enough to avoid traveling.

If I can't describe the travel using rule book terminology, like talking about the pivot foot and what it did, then I don't like to make the call. If a coach wants to know what the player did, what do I say? "It looked weird"?

Tough Call for Me ...
 

Travel. Plays like this are the ones that I have the most trouble with. I doubt that I would have called it a travel in real time in my high school game. Not because of some accepted philosophy, but because I would have just missed it.

You really can't describe why a spin like this is a travel? It's the same as any other...the player just spins while committing the violation.

No way this is a travel the way the game is played today. when a player is gathering, unless it is clear it is completely in control and possessed, gathered, with the pivot foot down, in this case the right foot, you don't call it. If you aren't 100% sure on a travel call, you shouldn't call it.

Another example, as a player is going out to the wing to catch a pass, if he is catching going away from the basket, then turns and faces the basket, it's always going to be close to a travel for the same reason. If you are good at calling this a travel, you won't last long.

It's a general statement regarding a traveling call. I actually described this play in my initial post in this thread.

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How About A Little Travelin' Music, Sammy (Jackie Gleason) …
 

It is a travel, whether it's called, or not, is another question.

BryanV21 does a nice job explaining why it is, indeed, a travel:

As I posted earlier, I probably would have missed the travel in real time, but that doesn't make it a legal move, just another screw-up by yours truly.

Agree.

I'll join that club, as I probably would have missed it too. Slow motion rules.

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Thankfully we are officiating at real speed and I don't put air in the whistle just cause "it had to be a travel and I bet it is if we watch it in slow motion."

Thank goodness it's that way. I'd prefer fewer travels in games, not more.

I'd be in full agreement with a "fewer travel" movement

That movement is alive and well. I'd guess that about 30% off travels are actually called during a BV game.

My point was that, if every time you slow it down it is a travel, maybe we should learn from that and adjust how we see them at live speed.

I'd prefer to not view them ever in slow motion over that.

You aren't alone...and I'm not sure I'm not with you. Though I do wish the rule reflected how the game is actually officiated...and expected to be officiated.

Slow And Steady (The Tortoise And The Hare, Aesop's Fables) ...
 

Said the young gun to the much older, veteran, experienced, official. Thanks for the compliment. And if I officiate a few more years, I bet that I can go a lot slower than I do presently.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...e_tortoise.jpg

That's What They Would Do In North Korea ...
 

Confiscate all cell phones at the door.

"That's right. You too, Grandma. No exceptions."

Ding, ding, ding!!! We have a winner. If there is a different standard that is expected to be applied, change the rule to fit. Don't write it one way, expect it to be called a different way (not called), and criticize those who call it the way it is defined.

I couldn't have said it better my self.

Not a travel anymore.

One thing that has evolved is the argument here. There's less "He may not have completed the gather" and more "That's never called." So the question remains, if I correctly call a travel which you can't see without slow motion, or even worse in my opinion, you simply refuse to call because some other official didn't /wouldn't, does that make me a bad official?

The "he may not have completed the gather" was never a good argument because, rules wise, there is no such thing as a gather. By rule, the dribble ends and the holding of the ball begins when the ball comes to rest in one or both hands. Being in two hands certainly makes it clear but it isn't a requirement and never has been.

Then, to expect defenders to maintain LGP on a player who is allowed to move in excess of the defined rules unfairly tips the balance in a way that was never intended.

Live, this is really tough to get. I doubt if I'd pick this up in a high school game, especially if I'm looking for contact on this play at the same time.

I don't think the rule needs adjustment. If you can't tell at full speed it's a travel then don't call it. If you can then do call it. Adding another step won't change anything. The line will just me moved further down.

If slow motion is needed to determine a travel then the call/no-call was the correct adjudication.

Do you call that travel?

Unless there have been travels on similar plays earlier in the day, I wouldn't call a travel. For me, I am not certain that it isn't going to be a spin dribble rather than a spin-catch-and-shoot until both hands are on the ball which I don't see until both feet are in the air.

As soon as you know he's not dribbling though...

A Tree Falls On A Basketball Court ...
 

... and, does it make a sound?

He has the ball in both hands with his back to the basket. He completes the spin and the second foot obviously lands before the release. Seems pretty obvious to me.

Do you call that travel in your games? This video is from a high school state tournament. You keep complaining about college officials not calling it. I'm asking you do you call it because in another thread you made excuses about coaches and fans.

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The issue is if the right foot is off the ground before he's cupped, gathered, controlled the ball. If you aren't absolutely sure, you don't call it. I've been told and always thought that if in real time it happens, you call it, and knowleadgeable basketball people in the stands look at each other and question whether it was a travel, you shouldn't have called it. Travels should be called when most everyone in the gym know it's a travel.

consider my other example: catching a wing pass going away from the basket, and ending up facing the basket in triple threat position. Really hard to do that w/o technically being close to a travel. yet it never, ever, is called, nor should it be called. If you catch on one step going away, then pivot around to face the basket, it's the same issue as here only worse: the foot you caught on comes back down as you turn to face the basket.

Kind of like face guarding with the hand: never, ever, called, yet it's in the rule book, or at least it used to be, as a technical.

And for the record, I probably would not have called this either seeing it live. I actually did not know it was a travel when I first saw the play. I only realized it after I clipped it up, because we have people that insist high school officials are "pure" and call these all the time as opposed to college officials that "completely ignore" this violation as stated by some who seem to not work a lick of college ball.

Peace

"knowleadgeable basketball people in the stands look at each other and question whether it was a travel, you shouldn't have called it....Travels should be called when most everyone in the gym know it's a travel."

Frankly, I don't find this helpful. I see something in real time and must make an immediate decision: I either pass (I'm sure it was not a travel) or call it (I'm sure it was). Maybe the fans in the stands were wrong. And we don't--and can't--officiate by taking a vote of spectators. Even on this forum, knowledgeable people often disagree, even with the benefit of slo-mo and replay.

Or maybe I'm missing your point.

By "knowledgeable basketball people", I assume you mean other basketball officials. :)

The point is simply, if you are not sure it is a travel when you see it in real-time, if it's gray area, you don't blow your whistle.

Yes, I do, always have. But I'm weakening in the name of consistency. It's not fair to the player to call a violation on something when he really and truly "has been doing that all year and nobody else has called it." You're gonna have to refresh my memory about the excuses, coaches, and fans part.

OK, but then why do you refer to people in the stand as a gauge?

If I'm the L I doubt I get it because I'm not going to able to see when the BH/D ends his dribble. Maybe if I'm the T but as the L one of the defenders would most likely be blocking me out.

It's funny, Jeff. My supervisors/observers/fellow officials at the NCAA level run the gamut on this issue, from call the really obvious ones to analyzing every move step by step. The one thing that's a constant is people say if I'm the best official at calling traveling I won't go too far. I remember an NCAAW preseason meeting video from within the past decade where the clinician flat out said to let stuff go on some of the spin moves, especially in the post. Now we've moved back to "call the rules as written." I just do my best to roll with it.

I can honestly say that I have never been told not to call travels at the college level. Also the NCAA video has shown many missed travels over the last few years so they clearly want us to call them on some level.

Again, I think many of these plays are just hard to call. I get some plays right and I struggle with others. I also do not want to go to the default position that any spin or euro step is a travel. I have seen many executed correctly and if it does not stand out, I am not calling them just because. I need something to identify as a travel. I just think that all officials are inconsistent in calling travels. Again, I try to get the "big" ones as much as possible, but like any other officials I miss them sometimes. It is no different than not calling a carry or getting an out of bounds play wrong.

Peace

You are overthinking it, it could be someone watching it on TV, whatever, simply people that have seen a lot of bball. Did you read my point about catching going away from the basket and squaring up? Same deal. Never called, but technically some of the time a travel.

I see more travels called that aren't than the other way around. Best practice is to only call it if you are 100% sure from what I've always been told, and observed from the best for that matter. I don't remember ever catching crap for not calling a close travel in the gazillion games I've done over the years.

Not by people that have a clue, anyway.

I can be 100% sure about a travel while plenty of people and coaches don't think it was. Are you saying I shouldn't call that?

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When one coach is unhappy and the other feels he got a gift, it's one to pass on.

Going to start polling them before each play! :D



[But I'm with you.]

Sometimes as officials we get to "cute" in our game calling. Travelling and 3 second violations come to mind. Call what needs to be called, when it needs to, but by all means one must weigh the overall impact (especially with 3 second calls) and nit picky (in relations to travel).

If you can defend a call by all means you are free to make it. But if you need frame by frame video to prove you made the right call then, with the exception of last second shots, no one cares really.

Travelling is also such a small part of the game why do we focus SO much attention to it? I may have 1 or two in average varsity game. I may have a handful of 3 second violations all year.