MAAC Title Game: Several Plays (Video)
 

Play 1:
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Play 2:
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Play 3:
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Play 4:
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Play 5: Added.....
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Peace

Plays 1 and 2 I don't see as fouls. In #1, looked like the shooter flailed a lot, which generally is an attempt to gain a whistle. In #2, trail was right there and had nothing but he also didn't mark the attempt so maybe it was below the line and it was leads call. I'm on my phone so it's hard to see. Our laptop is the first ever dell prototype so it is rarely ever used. In 3, the taunt, I assume the lead also heard what was said. And I don't know what coach was saying, can't read his lips that well but looked like he was trying to work the ref pretty good. In 4, i could go either way but I think it's correct. Pretty good hip check as he is receiving the pass, before the catch/shot.

Just saw you added 5: looks like a block. Defender jumped and maintained vertical but jumped from RA.

Trail did mark the attempt with his left (tableside) hand. Not a good get by the Lead because there was nothing to get.

And I think we'd all agree, especially with the benefit of replay, No. 1 is nothing either.

If he jumps to block the shot and has verticality, it cannot be a RA Block. The RA block is only when a secondary defender sets up to take a charge.

If the player is jumping to block a shot, this cannot be a RA play.

RA does not apply when the defender jumps. So it is judged as it would without the RA coming a factor.

Peace

No. 3, have to trust the official there. As for the coach's profane and prolonged reaction, we have zoom and can all read his lips. If any of that was audible, that's automatic T material. No judgement required. But maybe in that environment, especially with the calling (targeted) official opposite, it just melted into the background.

If you saw this game, there was a lot of talking and reaction to a lot of things in this game. Something tells me this was addressed directly and this player just did not listen. It was very contentious and a lot of reactions to calls and situations.

Peace

#1. Good call...the defender never stopped walking into the shooter's space and there was contact as he was moving forward.

#2. Another good get...the shooter got smacked in the face. No place for that as it wasn't anywhere near the ball.

#3. The body language sure looked like what would go along with taunting....I'm sure the official had it right.

#4. While he may have been contacted prior to the start of the shot, he was still being contacted during the shot...count it and shoot 1. SDF.

#5. I don't see anything the defender did wrong. He jumped vertically. RA doesn't apply when the player jumps to block the shot.

I am convinced the official not only saw the body language, but heard him too. He did not hesitate one second to give out that T.

Peace

Agree.

1. I don't have a whistle on this one. The offensive player is jumping into the defender. Of course, the defender isn't perfect either, but to penalize just the defense isn't fair.

2. I believe that there is a slight touch to the face. Strangely the shooter doesn't even react to it. As Lead, I'm letting the Trail make this decision. What is being missed near the basket, if the Lead is looking out there?

3. That's definitely taunting by the player and a partner should have whacked the coach for his tirade afterwards.

4. The foul was WAY before the player began going up. In fact, he is actually bending downward when fouled and then comes back up after the foul. The official got this correct.

5. The defender does a great job and nothing wrong. I have no whistle at all on this play.

1) After watching the replay, the defender is still moving into the shooting when contact occurs, so I guess by rule the call is correct. That said, in real time, I would have passed on this as the contact appeared to be initiated by the offensive player.

2. Given that he was looking there (which seemed odd but I know college may be different), it's a good call as the player does take a shot to the face. Good mechanics also to communicate what happened.

3. Seems like the official was already on alert for something here -- probably not the first time in this game that player had done something to catch the officials attention. Good call. Assuming the coach isn't out of the floor making a scene, I'd tend do do what the officials here did and ignore him while the free throws are occurring. At least from the video it doesn't look like anything that can't be ignored from the coach.

4. The official called the foul on the initial contact, which was before the shot.

5. In real time, it didn't appear the defender did anything wrong. However, on replay, the defender's left hand goes into the body of the player and may have contacted the shooters arm as well. The offensive player also pushes off, but the official would have had a good angle to see the defender's left hand so I assume that was what was called.

Nothing was missed near the basket. That is always such a weak argument.

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1. Good call. Defender nowhere near vertical and coming forward.
2. I do not think that is a good get. May have been a foul, but the T is right there and there are rebounders battling the L needs to be looking at.
3. I know if a coach yelled across the court "that's bullshit, that's a terrible call" I wouldn't have much choice but to give an additional T.
4. Good call. Push foul came as he received the pass, caused a travel, and he was fouled again on his way up. From the initial angle I said count it, but from the low angle you can see the initial push.
5. PC. No-call at worst. You can't penalize that defender. I go PC on this because offensive player leads with an elbow and displaces the defender quite a bit. That would be an interesting discussion with the coach, especially with a minute left in the game, but it would be the right call.

Exactly and slow motion clearly shows he was struck in the face. The angle we have from the video was rather far away and in a different direction. But he clearly was hit in the face and that is something I will call when seen as much as possible.

Peace

Iona had just gotten an offensive rebound and kicked it out. There were no competitive matchups going on near the basket.

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First and foremost, THANK YOU JRut for clipping these plays. You provide more professional development than most associations single handily.

Play1: Defender was still coming towards the shooter and his arms were not in his vertical plane. Shooting foul.

Play2: As a high school official, I shouldn't even be looking at a three point shooter, but I assume the college mechanic is different. Contact to the head, foul.

Play3: Maybe yelling to the crowd behind the hoop? You cannot dispute he intentionally or inadvertently yelled in the opponents face. Technical foul. Players have to measure their actions in the heat of the moment. Similar to the player slamming the ball down. Players are expected to maintain a reasonable amount of composure while playing.

Play4: This is a foul before the shooting motion began.

Play5: In high school with no RA, this is a charge. Similar to the one that was called on Lebron years ago in the finals (He lead with his knee into an airborne defender who was entitled to his verticality). In college, do you have to be on the ground to take a charge in the RA?

Interested for any feedback on my responses.

pfan

Only situations where I have an opinion.....

3 - NO WAY in a conference championship is what King Rice is saying going to be a technical foul....he is hollering a DJ. When DJ has had enough he will address it and warn Coach Rice. There a bunch of you that want to call a T here and maybe that works in your hs game but in this game, call a T and you will be waiting all summer for your MAAC contract for next year.

5 - This is a philosophy in the northeast part of the country ( don't shoot the messenger). That is the correct call. It is a one possession game. Put MU at the line, go to the other end, contact put Iona at the line...In the last two minutes each team gets to the line 10 times. Team A makes their free throws, Team B misses their free throws, game ends and nobody has any complaints.

Let the bashing begin....

Thanks for the info on that. I wasn't aware.

Fine, I'll start. Both of your comments are complete BS.
They represent the mentality of a coach and fans. They articulate why there are problems with sporting behavior and what people deem "make-up calls."

For you to imply on #3 that an official should not properly penalize a misbehaving coach out of fear of losing his schedule next season lacks ethics and is downright cowardly. You might as well make the same argument about penalizing the player in this situation. I recall a few seasons ago when the NCAA directives stated to penalize any profanity from a coach with a technical foul. The reason that coaches get away with so much poor behavior is because of people who think like you.

On #5 that "philosophy" sucks. Why should a quality game be turned into a FT shooting contest down the stretch? The NCAA has advocated for years to call the game the same way in the first minute as in the last minute. If this wasn't a foul in minute 1, then it is not a foul in the last two minutes. This "northeast philosophy" equates to nothing more than screwing the defensive team. And don't tell me that it's fine because it's the same for both teams. What if one team attacks the rim and the other shoots lots of 3s while the opponent plays a zone defense? Why can't officials call the game per the rules instead of attempting to adhere to all of these stupid philosophies?

Well thanks but jpgc99 said it before I did. I did not realize that until afterwards. But that is why we are here to help use understand all other levels on some level so we can combat objections when needed.

Peace

Respectfully disagree. Red #25 and White #33 are near the block. While they might not be engaged, it only takes a split second for any type of illegal contact to occur; while the ball is in the air is when players position themselves for the rebound. The practice of L taking his eyes off these two players during a shot is not an action I would subscribe to IMO.

NV-

With all due respect, a friend of mine who posts on here as well called me after he read my post and said he thought you would most likely be the first to respond ( I owe him dinner).

We will agree to disagree. As far as the tech, these are two bubble teams ( MU more so than Iona ). Those three are there for just that reason alone. they will let him vent, yes curse a bit. It is nothing cowardly or lacking ethics.
All three ( I've worked with one ) are excellent game managers.

As far as "the philosophy" that you don't like...it worked for Burr, Higgins and Cahill...they didn't do to poorly in their careers.....

DHR -

I respectfully disagree with you and agree with BNR ( no you aren't getting my CCAC games ). The matchup you talk of in the post is not "engaged" or "hot", yes there are two players there....Now one can argue if the play in itself is a whistle but I don't mind four eyes on that play. Lead can quickly recover to the post...or a lead as good as BNR !!!!:D:D:D:D:D

And I respectfully agree with your position. ;)

Peace

Rut -

I will most likely be working with BNR in May at an EYBL event, at that time I will let you know if he is still that strong in the lead !!!!!

Why do I get the feeling that several posters in this thread know the calling official on this play and are backing their buddy. :(

I have never had anyone characterize a 3pt jumpshooter with a single defender as a two-official play.

What the heck is the Trail supposed to be watching, if not these two players? The Lead is telling us that he doesn't think that the Trail can officiate 1v1 basketball. Perhaps he wants his game check too. :p

Please post the pictures on FB. :D

Peace

I have never met the official in question and if someone does not think this guy can officiate, he would not have been on the title game. Something tells me these guys know each other and something also tells me after seeing the video the Trail is thanking the Lead and probably bought him a beverage of some kind or will as a result.

It is one play, if that is all we have to talk about then we are doing just fine.

Peace

Clearly I have great consistency in how I feel about sporting behavior and officials taking care of business.

1. I understand that an NCAA tourney berth and many $ are on the line for these two schools and the coaches as well.
2. Venting is fine. Having the guy who is paid lots of $ to be a role model for the young men on the team directing profanity at the officials at a college athletic event is not. The darn NCAA even said so.
3. Failure to follow NCAA directives is not good game management.
4. Higgins and Burr are dinosaurs. Cahill is a recent example of an excellent official who is now retired. The game and the spotlight on it have changed immensely in the past 20 years, and greatly in the past 10. HDTV gives everyone a clearer picture of people's actions and mouths. The microphones at courtside are much better too. Some things which were acceptable when Burr and Higgins were at the top of the old Big East aren't acceptable now. All of the NCAA instruction says so, yet there are hold-outs who think that things should still be done the old way. They are not part of the solution. They are part of the problem.

No one here is backing Mr. Anderson. His schedule speaks for itself. What we are saying is that he didn't have anything hot to officiate at the present moment. He took a peak at ball...saw contact on the shooter gave DJ a chance and came and got it. I'm sure DJ and Jeff may have had a conversation about the play.....if Kitts didn't like the whistle he will tell Jeff as well.

Again our point ( Rut / BNR & myself )....if you have NOTHING active and there is a shooter involved, which isn't in the next county take a look at that play....he did and thought it needed a whistle. Again we can argue whether or not it is a foul but we agree that him on ball when he had NOTHING going on in his primary to be OK.......

I'm glad we can be all hold hands and sing "Kumbaya" about this play. :D

I guess it's just a philosophy matter of how we are observed and supervised; could it be a regional thing?:confused: I know my coordinator would not want the L to reach out on this play; if the T doesn't call it then it's on him and he will be downgraded. Officiating in 3-man is a "team" concept. It's not like the T wasn't looking at the play or was blocked out; he made a decision and will have to live with it.

Where in the NCAA-M mechanics manual does it say the L signal a 3-pt attempt at the wing FT-line extended? The L looking out there means to me he is a ball-watcher and doesn't trust his partners.

But I'm right because BNR and Rut agree with me:p:p:p:p

Again I think we are talking apples and oranges....Anderson has nothing to referee at that moment. If he had Mourning and Shaq in the post banging on each other, I'd be up in arms as well....but at this moment 4 eyes is a great "team concept"...We all know that Scott Foster would have his eyes on this play as the lead...

Peace my brother !!!! Kumbaya to you as well !!!!!

1. Seems that you are too close to the people involved to make an objective judgment.

2. Ah, yes, Mike Kitts the Final Four official...I recall many of his Big East games. How could I ever forget when he allowed Seton Hall to play with six against Georgetown for 10 of the final 12 seconds of the second half of a tied game? The action was bookended by two time-outs and included two made baskets and a held ball. That's some excellent game awareness.

Regional thing......
 

Yes there are some regional / conference approaches throughout the country.

Big South is officiated like the NBA.

MEAC still has its guys using one hand at the table

Big East still has a very physical approach to it guys manage games more in that league.

SEC / Big 12 do an excellent job of enforcing 10.1.4

Is JD Collins unifying things...yes but it will take a while !!!!

Sorry that is their names.....if it was three west coast guys I would use their names as well.

Why such a negative approach about Mike Kitts....did you try out for the MAAC and he didn't hire you ???

They were not at all engaged. The Iona player was moving away from the basket and defender. The lead was following the ball to see where it went and here was an immediate shot from a good three to four steps below the free throw line.

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No, I went to Georgetown and watched him work several times. That's what I observed. He's probably a nice guy. It's nothing personal. I will add that he hung on WAY too long. He could barely run his last couple of years.

DJ is a B1G official. He whacks that coach and he's still working the same game next season.

Not saying he should've. I wouldn't have even heard him in a HS game. Too busy shooting free throws. Let him vent a bit.

And he will be around longer in that conference and other conferences than the coach.

I think we have to know our worth better than we do.

Peace

It is an NCAA-M mechanic to have the L assist with 3pt shots taken in the corner. I believe this was added to the mechanics 2 or 3 years ago.

I pregame this in HS games, too.

A shot with the shooting arm in the corner can be virtually impossible for the T to see properly. I'm out there as the L, I'm grabbing a look.

For shots in the corner sure, move out and take it as the L. I thought this was a reach by the L. Not bc of any matchup in the post but bc the T was standing right there and had nothing.

I disagree Higgins is a dinosaur. He works a ton of games and doesn't put up with a lot of crap. Imho, he does a good job.

And if the NCAA wants coaches cussing penalized, someone should tell the officials. I love Coach K but he would be dumped every game if cursing were a T. He does it a lot. Sadly.

You're thinking of John Higgins. I think the previous post was speaking of Tim Higgins.

Hahaha. You would be correct. My bad. I thought something was weird about the dinosaur statement

Rich,

I agree T or not he is in the MAAC next year. I do believe his feel for the game and his overall ability is the reason why he ignored this, just like you said, you are on the other end shooting free throws.....

Regarding venting, I had a coach in a game this year, go off the handle about thirty seconds before a media timeout. At the media he read me the riot act. I let him know I had enough. As he came out of the TO, I reminded him he was in a 1 possession game with 7 minutes to go and we weren't the problem.

#25 on the other team was...he laughed and we had no issues !!! Most of the
time they just want to blow off steam....

Some officials seem to be okay with coaches treating them poorly. I won't tolerate it. It didn't take long for most of the coaches in the area to know the consequence, and so they don't misbehave towards me. I find that a better path.

NV - A gentleman in this business who is now retired told me ( campers) years ago at Fred Barakat's referee school, the longer you are in a league the less technical's you should have....Never was a statement more correct. With the exception of JUCO, my technical fouls are very minimal. As you move up the ladder, supervisors expect you have pretty solid people skills. Im not saying you don't...we just have different approaches. When my ratings decline due to this, I might just send you a PM on how to handle things. But until then, Ill stick with what works for me. That is the beauty of this business...

Disclaimer: Not sure if many people under 35 are familiar with Fred Barakat but it was probably the best camps I ever attended !!!

I actually totally agree with this. Coaches know "I am not that one." It makes life so much easier. Now I might not resolve that with T all the time as I tend to stop craziness before it starts and no one knows interaction even took place.

Peace

It also happens that as you've been around longer, you also gain the respect of the coaches. You've proven over time you can call the game. They're less likely to give you grief to the level you have to deal with. It isn't just magical people skills.

You just saved me some typing, but unless Fred Barakat said it, this isn't going to matter to him.

PS I'm pretty certain that Barakat is deceased.

+1