SMU @ Cincinnati Plays
 

Play #1:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/GjZ64uPu1Yw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Play #2:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Qf-kjJLJKVE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Play #3:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_Ib8jqdncug" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Play#4:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/PJhvDBWHO4Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Play #5:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Hg4fjNdaLbw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Peace

1) Easy block
2) I got nothing...looked at this several times and nothing. Well maybe something on #11. Lot of bodies moving around though so I can see why the official may have put a whistle.
3) Good call
4) I had travel. Most of the contact initiated by the offense.
5) Counted this myself and I had 5 seconds as well.

1. Regardless of what the call should be, the big problem is the mechanics. With a play at the basket, the closest official was still above the top of the key. The new lead was behind 7 players at the time of the shot. The video didn't show enough before the transition to know what went wrong. Did he miss a rotation? Did he just react too slowly to the turnover? Did he get too low as Trail before the turnover? He also looked to be hobbled a bit in transition....was he hurt an unable to keep up?

The C's position wasn't great either but not horrible. The new trail also came in with a whistle from at least 60 ft. away....not sure that was needed given the C already had a whistle.

2. Foul, #11, over the top of the shooter, not in his own space and hits the shooter's elbow.
3. Correct...screener kept moving farther and farther out through contact.
4. Defender had LGP, contact was the responsibility of the dribbler. Good call.
5. It was even 6 or 7 by the time of the whistle.

1. I did not personally like this call. I do not know what the defensive player did wrong.

2. He got #11 for likely not be vertical and doing the "my hands were up" move after being in the cylinder of the offensive player. I think that was a good call.

Peace

I think this one was really close. At first, I though as you did. But, after watching it again, did the defender ever actually have LGP? I'm not sure he ever got 2 feet down while in the path of the shooter. I think he was still moving into the path at the time of contact and hadn't got that 2nd foot down to establish LGP.

1. The defender illegally moved sideways into the dribbler who was trying to go around him.
2. The defender clearly jumped out of his verticality and made body-to-body contact with the shooter.
3. It looks like the screener actually pushes the defender from behind, meaning it should have been a pushing foul. If you pass on that, then I'm not 100% sold on the illegal screen call.
4. The defender did nothing wrong here.
5. While it's rare to see this called, I believe it was right.

1. Real speed, tough. Slo mo block
2. Defensive hands over shooter and make contact
3. Screener continued to move out and made contact
4. All on dribbler
5. At least 6, good call

I think there is not question that he had LGP. It only takes a moment and he had it longer than just a moment IMO. If the ball handler was airborne I would agree that this is a block, but the ball handler made contact while on the floor. I think this is another case of just penalizing the defense when contact occurs. I would have called this a PC foul all day based on the information I have seen. Maybe from his angle I could have considered something else, but I do not know what that would have been at this point. He did not move forward, he moved sideways. And if there is any doubt, the defense gets the doubt from my point of view.

Peace

All good calls. Thanks - as always - for posting the plays.

What does this mean:

??

I've got a clear illegal screen on this and a correct call.

Okay.

If you want more of an explanation from me, fine...

The defender that ends up being screened looks to be displaced (aka "pushed") before the dribbler even tries going around the screen. Now, yes... looking at it again the push may have happened during the screen itself, thus making it an illegal screen. However, I could see a pushing foul being called before the illegal screen even happens.

The push is the illegal screen.

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If there was no dribbler it would still be a pushing foul on the offensive player... that's the point.

Now, if you say the push happened while he was screening, hence an illegal screen foul... fine, I can see that. But whether it was a screen or not I've got a push.

I have no idea what your point is. It's a push, in this case an illegal screen also. Who said it wasn't a push?

2. I was going to question B2 grasping the basket. But after reading NCAAM 10-4-1-e, this may actually be allowed since it wasn't excessive nor emphatic?

I'm with you. I'm not sure what he did wrong, either. Not that I would solely call a PC based on the defender taking the contact from the BH/D in the middle of the chest but it's kind of hard not to have obtained LGP when a player takes the contact in the middle of the chest.

The point is you can possibly call a push BEFORE the screen even happens.

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The push *is* the screen. That's all screening activity.

Trail w/foul????
 

Anyone else notice the Trail coming in with a foul on play #1? He has to be 10 feet behind the half line when he makes the call. I found that a VERY large stretch. It would have looked quite silly had the C or L not had a whistle on that play as it was nowhere near a "whale" type call.

If the dribbler goes the other way I'm calling a push.

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You're calling a team control foul either way. What's the difference?

It's an unnecessary distinction.

How is that any different than how you would report if it was done as part of an illegal screen?

For play #4, there is no way it is a foul on the defender, I think we're all in agreement on that, but is it a travel? Looks to me like the defender falls while dribbling, then grabs the ball on his butt, then passes. This happens to me a few times a season where a ball handler keeps his dribble during the fall, and passes to a teammate. I think they should've played on there.

I'm not giving the illegal screen signal nor am I actually saying "illegal screen". I'm giving the push signal and saying "push".

Do you use the traveling signal for a carry or other violation?

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My prelim either way is going to be a TC punch. At the table I'll show what he did. As others have said, the push IS the illegal screen. Not all illegal screens are blocking fouls. Some are holds, some are pushes, some are chucks.

You guys are really taking this far.

You can have a push and then another foul. Like I said... If you deem the push to be the illegal screen that's fine, but I can see a push before the word "screen" even enters my head.

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What is an "illegal screen signal?"

The signal is a team control foul -- it doesn't matter if it's a screen, a push, or whatever.

You can have a pushing foul in and of itself. It doesn't have to be part of an illegal screen.

Btw, there IS an illegal screen signal... It's the same as a blocking signal.

What is the problem here. Are you guys so set on calling me an idiot that you can't think otherwise?

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Seriously? That's like saying that a shooting foul is a shooting foul, and there's no need to say whether it was a push, block, illegal contact, etc. I guess all the different signals in the rule book are just to fill space. Not to mention the definitions for each.

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They're your words putting images in our heads.

There is no such thing as an "illegal screen signal" in the NFHS book. No. Such. Thing. The signal chart does not say "illegal screen" anywhere.

The correct signal is the team control foul signal, unless your location has decided to use other signals in lieu of or in addition to that signal. I would be using the "team control foul" signal, both at the spot and at the table.

But if you are using signal 34 on an illegal screen, it's still a blocking foul no matter what you are calling it.

Some people (you in this case) just like to argue even though they are factually incorrect. This conversation needs to be put on hold until you tell us the signal # that's listed as an illegal screen.

Nap time.

Since we're getting so unnecessarily technical....there is no illegal screen signal. It just happens that a lot of illegal screens end up being of the blocking foul variety.

This has gone way beyond my initial post, and I didn't take it here. But alas...

Now I'm at work so I can't look at the book, but I'll take your words for it. However, I've been using the block signal for an illegal screen for years and nobody has questioned me on it. Maybe it's a local thing and someone told me about it.

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Because most illegal screens are blocks. It's not a local thing, it's the proper signal in most cases. But illegal screens can also be holds or pushes, and the appropriate signal is given to the table when reporting. (Add a trip for NCAA-M)

You need to quit acting like folks here just disagree with you for entertainment. If you distrust what we say so much, you need to be in the book more.

If you don't have your books and you've never looked it up, why were you being so adamant on the subject?

I felt like I was clear in my first post. I saw push first, then an illegal screen. And the questions regarding my post weren't clear to me.

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I'm the one that brought up the question in the first place, and it was a sincere question.

The part above in bold is what was concerning to me. The statement implies that an illegal screen can only be a blocking foul. As we have explained, an illegal screen can be a block, a hold, a push, a chuck, etc.

The action in play 3 is an illegal screen, and it is an illegal screen because of the push.

I had a pushing foul. IMO, it didn't matter what the dribbler did, where he was, etc. The offensive player displaced the defender.

You say that push and the screening action occurred at the same time, thus an illegal screen. I didn't see it like that the first time, but upon further viewing, like I said, I'm good with that.

I had no problem with that question, just the subsequent responses telling me what I said is the same thing. It's not... There can be a push separate from an illegal screen.

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Which goes back to my question, which signal would you give to the table regardless if it were a screen or not? You were the one telling us it was wrong to call an illegal screen a push.

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Hey, I admitted I was wrong when I said there must not be an illegal screen signal (same as blocking signal). But there is a pushing signal. And that there is the difference I was referring to.

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Try this...

At the table..
1. Say "white 32" while using one hand to signal a three then a two.
2. "team control foul" while touching the back of my head (local thing they want us to do to make it clear no free throws)
3. "push" while giving the push signal.

Or...

1. and 2. stay the same
3. "illegal screen" while giving the block signal.

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You can say illegal screen, but that is not what the signal is called. I also will say "illegal screen" but I rarely say the signal, I describe the action like saying, "Push in the back on the rebound" while giving a "push" signal.

Peace

And in some locations, the team control signal is the only one to be given on a team control foul.

In my state they want us to give the type of foul after the TC signal.

Peace

My state HS authority and every college observer or supervisor I've met want the proper signal for the act that happened.

You can call this play an illegal screen, a push, or whatever, but the SIGNAL will be a PUSH.

But if your local association is doing its own thing, don't get mad at us because we reference what the rule book and manual say.

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Like I said, I give the block signal and I haven't been corrected. And I can't say where I got that from. My ass? Idk

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With the NCAA-M rules, if you use anything else other than the "team control" mechanic, you are open to interpretation if the offended team could shoot bonus FTs. A "push" can occur during a rebound (when there is no team control), thus bonus FTs can be shot. A foul by the offensive team can either be in team control or not team control. There is no "illegal screen" mechanic in the NCAA-M manual.

My thoughts exactly. I thought it (#1) was the right call, with the defender throwing a shoulder to the side to catch the shooter.

All the calls were correct, IMO, but I still can't see why the T came flying in with his fist up. It's an odd play for three whistles.

Team Control signals ...
 

Same here, for example, team control punch followed by hands on hips block for an illegal screen.

In the State Finals the head official tells the officials that no one does this right and if they do not do it right in the games (at the State Finals), they owe him a beer. Well I bought 3. :D

I never do it right and usually forget the foul signal but always go with the TC signal.

Peace

You Never Know Who Observing ...
 

I will often forget to give the "illegal screen block" signal as part of the preliminary signal at the site of the foul, just giving the team control punch, but I'm pretty good at remembering to give both signals as I report to the table, verbally stating "illegal screen" as I give the blocking signal. The signal for the type of foul (push, hold, block, etc.), is always important, but the most important signal is the team control punch because it tells everybody, including your partner, that we're not shooting free throws.

(I'm also one of those "fist" on hips blocking foul guys as the preliminary signal but will usually come to my senses and give the correct "hands" on hips signal when reporting to the table.)