![]() |
Illegal or not?? Please Help!!
Need your help with this…….
During the first game of District Tournament, Team A put a coach (who had been fired a few weeks earlier and also happens to be the husband of the now head coach. ) at the top of the stands with a cell phone, to call down to a coach on Team A’s bench, who was wearing a hidden bluetooth headset. The fired coach in the bleachers called all of the plays, where Team B’s gaps were, who to double team, who was dropping down on defense, and how to run the offense on Team B’s defensive holes. They won the game and were caught at the end and turned by the officials who were refereeing the next game. In disputing this, Team B was told there was nothing illegal done and that they (Team B) could have done the same thing because NFHS approved the use of electronic devices for basketball. The head coach of Team was fired that night due to her actions of using wireless communication. This happened in Kentucky by the way, and KHSAA said that nothing can be done. Does anybody on this forum know the rules on this??? It’s a shame that Team B was put at such a competitive disadvantage and not allowed to advance. All coaches involved admitted what they had done to the Board of Control, as well as KHSAA. |
It depends on whether the rules of the particular state differ from the NFHS. The NFHS rule allowing use of electronic devices is to allow the use of IPads and similar technology on the sideline for the purpose of coaching and gathering stats. It specifically prevents their use for communication.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Case 10.1.3A makes this a team T.
I applaud school A for firing the coach of Team A. |
In the Technical-Foul Penalty Summary of the 2015-16 NFHS Rules Book, under Administrative, it lists "electronic communication". This would be a team technical foul, and count towards team foul count.
|
Quote:
|
Jerk married to Jerkette. Both canned,Great!
|
Kentucky rules do not differ from NFHS rules.
When I challenged the use of electronic devices for communication, I was basically told that I was misinterpreting the rule and that the rule meant a coach couldn't communicate with a player on the floor (as in if the player were wearing an earpiece). Below is an email that was sent to Julian Tackett, KHSAA interpreter and his reply... Dear Mr. Tackett, I’m writing you today to respectfully ask for your help, as well as interpretation, regarding an incident that took place at our girl’s district basketball tournament. I made several attempts to reach you and did leave a voicemail for your assistant today, asking that someone return my call but did not get a reply. I’m sure you are aware of the situation, with regards to the McLean County vs Ohio County girls’ basketball district game this past Monday. I spoke with Butch Cope this morning, who stated that McLean County’s coaches did nothing wrong concerning this situation and that the use of an illegal coach at the top of the bleachers, calling from his cell phone to a coach on their bench, while using bluetooth to communicate during the game, was an acceptable practice and that our team could have done the same. The McLean County coaches used these devices to gain a competitive advantage over our team during district play, allowing for plays to be called from the top of the bleachers from the birdseye view of an illegal coach, who continually called which plays to run, where to set screens, where our gaps were, and which of our players to double team. He had a birdseye view of the court, and was in a position that a coach on the bench or in the coaches box, could have NEVER had. This is a completely unethical practice and would not fall within acceptable NFHS Coaches Code of Ethics. Mr. Cope stated that this behavior and unethical practice was acceptable since a rule was passed last year that would allow the use of electronic equipment. I, however, understand/interpret this rule as allowing the use of tablets to gather and record statistical information and that the uses of such devices were to be utilized solely for such purpose. I also understand/interpret KHSAA bylaw 15 to be understood as a team or staff member may not use any equipment that would give one team a competitive advantage over the other during a game, which was the exact conclusion of their use of these devices. KHSAA bylaw 15 reads as follows: Sec 2) ILLEGAL EQUIPMENT/VIDEOTAPING a) It shall be considered a violation of this rule if any school or school representative(s) uses or allows the use of illegal equipment which gains a competitive advantage in the contest and which is expressly prohibited by the rules adopted for that sport. I am respectfully asking for your help regarding this matter. Please do not excuse the actions of unethical coaches and send the wrong message to these young ladies. Allowing advancement of one team over the other when neither is at fault would be completely unjust. These girls work hard all season and they do so with anticipation of tournament competition. These coaches not only took from our girls, but theirs as well. Would the outcome of the game been any different had the unethical coaches not used the devices? Nobody could possibly know this now. Is it fair that their girls be punished for something they possibly didn’t know anything about? No! Now with that being said, should our girls be punished because they were put at a competitive disadvantage, which possibly cost them advancement in the tournament? No! In my opinion, the fair thing to do in this case is to have the two teams to play again, without the use of unethical or illegal equipment. Another solution would be to allow Ohio County to advance to regional play. I would appreciate hearing from you regarding this matter either by phone or email. Sincerely, ******* Mr. Tackett's reply...... From: Tackett, Julian [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 10:40 AM To: ***** Subject: Re: McLean County vs Ohio County Thank you for your note. Mr. Cope has given you the proper interpretation in that what was done is not illegal per the playing rules or the KHSAA rules. At this point, Bylaw 15 is irrelevant as it only applies to illegal equipment. Per the playing rules, this equipment was not illegal, so that provision does not apply. As for the playing rules, there continues to be a prohibition against communicating with players electronically, but not among coaches. This situation, and three others like it that have occurred this year in various states, will place this issue on the agenda for the national rules committee to consider whether or not there should be further restrictions. And while what was done (communication to the bench from somewhere else) may not be illegal this year, that answer could very well change for the coming years. And if such does not change, then all schools should be notified and allowed to have the same opportunities. It is important that the rules committee address this situation for a variety of reasons. This type of communication is perfectly permissible in many sports (i.e. football), but, in reality, has never been addressed for basketball as it wasn't necessary to address when no communication devices were permitted. That clarity will help all of us in the future. Because nothing against any playing rules was done, there is obviously no needed remedy of replaying contests, etc. I appreciate the professional tone of your inquiry and when the rules committee makes any decisions about future playing rules, we will notify all of our member schools so that they can prepare for the coming seasons. |
Quote:
|
I agree and have argued, cited rules, bylaws and still get told that I am misinterpreting this and that what they did was legal!! Can anybody help me with this??
|
Quote:
|
But they did use it to communicate with players on the floor.
|
Man, something seems fishy here, doesn't seem to pass the eye test. Although it would look weird, I suppose it would now be legal for a coaching staff to take one of the school's football headsets and do the same thing then? Gonna have to think more on this one, I feel like there is something we're missing here.
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
They did however tell us that in April, the wording would be changed so this wasn't allowed. As far as I'm concerned, that's how it already reads!
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
Is there not a rule about where coaches have to be, as in on the bench or coaching box? |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
There are only 3 teams in this district. After the head coach was fired, the boys basketball head coach coached the girls in the championship game, which they won.
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
I'm not an expert on the English language, written or spoken, but when I see a comma used I believe it's to separate parts of the sentence. For example, "he hit the ball, dropped the bat, and ran to first base." Those are three different actions being taken, meaning the "dropped the bat" part is not an extension of the "he hit the ball" part. That is why I believe either the interpretation is wrong, or the wording needs to be fixed. |
I appreciate and thank everyone for their input on this. It's just been a very frustrating situation and you hate to see anything taken away from either group of girls because of unethical actions of adults. I truly believe you will be seeing changes in the next rule book.
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
If my team runs an OOB play after a made basket, where the inbounder passes it along the baseline to another teammate that's also out of bounds, is what I did cheating because the other team didn't know that was legal? Of course not. So while I may be on your side as for the legality of the play in the OP (I say "may" because I'm not yet convinced either way, although I tend to go with BigCat), I don't agree the other team cheated. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
On a side note though, the referees from the next game are the ones who caught it. So I guess when the refs "reported" it to KHSAA, it's easy to think they must have been doing something illegal....I guess maybe the officials weren't sure either....not to mention when the head coach and assistant coach got fired as soon as they got off the bus back at their school. So I guess this means now that all teams everywhere going to regional and state tournaments can now do this too. Basketball has now become like nascar, every team can have a "spotter"..... |
Quote:
Methinks a clarification or "editorial change" will be forthcoming from the NFHS on this for next season... personally, I think this type of thing shouldn't be allowed in basketball, but if NFHS decides to allow this type of communication that's fine too... one less AC on the bench to potentially have a problem with. |
reading mr tacket email that was posted didn't he say legal among coaches wouldn't think a fired coach could be labeled a coach for the team he was fired from
|
I don't see how this gives a team an unfair advantage. It's dealing with the same information in the game and I'm guessing you are from the losing school. You could have done this as well but in reality it just appears that the losing team's coach got out coached.
|
lol --funny watch basketball game sitting up high in bleacher seeing whole floor so much better and I would think if coach and assistant coach willing be fired if caught most of thought it give advantage may be legal but I would say highly unethical or teams be hiring a assistant coach sit in stands instead of on bench
|
Quote:
No, you can't. 10.1.3A "Team A's coach (b) is in contact with an assistant coach in the press box via a headset. RULING: A team technical foul is charged in (b). edit: I see part of the problem. This is in the 2014-2015 book, but has been removed from the 2015-2016 book. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
And, it's the same at 2014-15 10.1.3B(a). The difference being that someone is personally bringing information from the press box or dressing room to the bench. Or, showing plays to team members on the bench. There's no direct "electronic transmission" from the press box to the coach. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Obviously, we could enforce the headset rule but we couldn't stop somebody from up top emailing an assistant on the bench. I think they are likely to allow emailing video to the bench but not go as far as headsets. It could use a rewrite. |
Also, the headset play was in the case books when 10-1-3 said no electronics can be used for coaching purposes in the game being played.(my 10/11 books show that) That rule has changed as we know. It may be that they forgot to remove the headset case play when they changed the rule. Finally did this year.
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
I don't know what the exact answer is but the video play says it is legal to relay the info from up top to the bench. Can't imagine they would say you have to personally carry it down when it can easily be emailed these days. We'll see. |
Quote:
Seems you're more hung up on him being fired... for what reason i don't know or care - that's the districts issue. Do we really expect that a fired husband/coach won't help his wife in any way possible to win!? If the rules don't disallow it, why is it wrong? If he was sitting behind the bench and giving her information, would this be wrong or none of our business? BTW: When a parent is in the stands coaching their kid - do we consider this cheating? Also, if they're still winning - maybe they're just better! |
Quote:
Do we really want to have a separate set of rules for girls and boys... cause this is a non-issue in boys basketball? If this guy was sitting behind the other teams bench doing this - I'd have a problem... There is no such thing as a birds-eye view that is more helpful than being down on the floor in basketball... That's why the idiots up there never get calls correct! |
Quote:
NFHS Basketball Interpretations Situation 1 May electronic devices be used in dead ball situations, such as free throws and throw-ins to communicate with players officially in the game? RULING: No, the coaching staff may not use an electronic device to communicate with the players on the playing court at any time. They may use an electronic device to coach the players on the bench at any time. The confusion seems to lie in whether or not they are talking about the player using an earpiece. My argument on this is... If allowable for a coach to use said electronic device with players on the bench, they must not be talking of an earpiece, because why the hell would you need an earpiece to communicate with a player that was sitting right next to you?? I just think how it's written, since it doesn't specifically say earpiece, cellphone, tablet...all of which could be construed as "wireless communication" and "electronic devices," is a little confusing and leaves it wide open for argument between NFHS and KHSAA writings, which also state that it may not be used to gain a competitive advantage over an opposing team in any contest. Would not doing what they did have changed the outcome of the game? Who knows? Although I will add that we handed them a loss at our last meeting and after the husband was let go, they lost every game (4 or 5) up until the game with us, which was at the district tournament. Again, who knows what the outcome would have been, but that's besides the point. The point is, I was just asking for clarification on rules and interpretations that could have been better written to avoid the confusion. I guess we will all know in April, when as we were told, the wording would probably be changed. |
Quote:
Someone will have to find the guide to see if it mentions the type of ear-piece verbal communication we are discussing in the OP |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Thanks again everyone!! |
Quote:
|
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:59pm. |