The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Basketball (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/)
-   -   It is that time of year....I have a question for everyone (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/100952-time-year-i-have-question-everyone.html)

JRutledge Mon Feb 22, 2016 06:05pm

It is that time of year....I have a question for everyone
 
Well we are getting our playoff assignments and in the boys side at least I am starting to hear the rumblings of who is and who is not getting assignments.

I have a lot of officials that will ask me why they did or did not get a certain assignment. Usually their complaint are about how good someone is over another person and why they did not get picked over another official.

My question is for those of any level, what does it mean to be better than another official in your mind? If you think someone should be picked over another person, is your criteria simply being a better play caller? Or do you think you have to be be a better game manager? What about fitness level? Or is it being the younger guy as opposed to the older guy?

What are the common complaints you hear about post season assignments and why do you feel some guys get picked over others. I also want a deeper conversation than the "ole boy's network" and would like to hear specifics.

Peace

WhistlesAndStripes Mon Feb 22, 2016 06:12pm

There's plenty for everyone!!

https://ilovefundraising.com/wp-cont...undraiser1.jpg
https://ilovefundraising.com/wp-cont...undraiser1.jpg

Raymond Mon Feb 22, 2016 06:30pm

I stay away from those conversations. I'm starting to reap rewards of paying attention to the habits of successful officials, and worrying about myself and what I need to do.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

deecee Mon Feb 22, 2016 07:40pm

I think it's simple. There are many good officials and limited spots. As long as someone is good and has the track record, unfortunately it's tough to bring in new blood. It's just the reality.

I also had an assignor say to me this past year when it comes to new guys that were "better" versus the old guys that may have lost a step. He said sometimes dealing with "the devil you know" is a safer option for him, coaches and everyone involved.

The gist is just do your best at what you can control and when you get the opportunity don't f@#$ up.

DRJ1960 Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 982035)
I stay away from those conversations. I'm starting to reap rewards of paying attention to the habits of successful officials, and worrying about myself and what I need to do.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

This

Mregor Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:50pm

Be honest. If they argue with what you tell them, stop. If they ask, they have to be able to accept the truth (as you see it). The ones who want to improve, will take it and work to improve their weaknesses. Those who are perennial complainers, will blow it off and reinforce your evaluations. You don't want that type anyway.

VaTerp Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 982035)
I stay away from those conversations. I'm starting to reap rewards of paying attention to the habits of successful officials, and worrying about myself and what I need to do.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

+1

I had an official ask me last week, "so how do you get to Richmond (where the state semis and finals are held in VA)?" I replied, "I have no idea. I just show up to the game's I'm assigned, try to do my best, observe others, and try to keep getting better." I did, btw, also mention the VHSL evaluation camp.

But I hear people complaining about not getting certain assignments, talking about other officials who are getting them over them, etc. I can only assume some of the same people are saying things about me behind my back.

Control what you can control and don't worry about who thinks what unless they are position to make decisions affecting what games you get.

walt Tue Feb 23, 2016 06:27am

What BadNewsRef said!

Control what you can control. Stay away from the gossip.

Smitty Tue Feb 23, 2016 07:36am

The season starts and ends a little earlier in Texas than in many other places, and tonight I have the good fortune of working in my 4th playoff game this post-season. Our association works hard to be one of the most respected in the state, so we tend to get games far outside our general region in the state. Last Friday I also had the good fortune to be chosen to work a game 300 miles away (there are about 4 associations between ours and that game, but ours was requested - the schools playing in the game get a choice and if they can't agree, the UIL chooses for them). The R for that game was the association president and my other partner was familiar with board activity as well, so I learned a lot about what goes on behind the scenes on that long drive. There are a lot of factors that go into deciding who gets post-season games - our ranking in the association, our availability, our evaluations, and the coaches also have a say. There are also a lot of people who complain because they think they deserve something they are not getting. I don't know why I've received 4 games this post-season - I had a great regular season and my assignor thinks I have earned them, one way or another. Maybe I was just available, as I'm pretty certain not many people would be for a game 300 miles away on a Friday. All you can do is work hard to be the best you can be and if you earn it, enjoy every minute of it. It's a lot of fun...

SNIPERBBB Tue Feb 23, 2016 08:21am

Politics.

UNIgiantslayers Tue Feb 23, 2016 09:02am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smitty (Post 982062)
The season starts and ends a little earlier in Texas than in many other places, and tonight I have the good fortune of working in my 4th playoff game this post-season. Our association works hard to be one of the most respected in the state, so we tend to get games far outside our general region in the state. Last Friday I also had the good fortune to be chosen to work a game 300 miles away (there are about 4 associations between ours and that game, but ours was requested - the schools playing in the game get a choice and if they can't agree, the UIL chooses for them). The R for that game was the association president and my other partner was familiar with board activity as well, so I learned a lot about what goes on behind the scenes on that long drive. There are a lot of factors that go into deciding who gets post-season games - our ranking in the association, our availability, our evaluations, and the coaches also have a say. There are also a lot of people who complain because they think they deserve something they are not getting. I don't know why I've received 4 games this post-season - I had a great regular season and my assignor thinks I have earned them, one way or another. Maybe I was just available, as I'm pretty certain not many people would be for a game 300 miles away on a Friday. All you can do is work hard to be the best you can be and if you earn it, enjoy every minute of it. It's a lot of fun...

300 MILES?!? My God man, they should fly you there for that one. What was your travel reimbursement if you don't mind me asking?

Smitty Tue Feb 23, 2016 09:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers (Post 982065)
300 MILES?!? My God man, they should fly you there for that one. What was your travel reimbursement if you don't mind me asking?

I actually would have flown if I didn't like my partners enough to ride in a car for 7 hours. The mileage for playoffs here is 54 cents per mile for one car, 41 cents per mile for 2 cars, and 32 cents per mile for 3 cars. Plus over 150 miles gets a meal reimbursement. We took one car and myself and the other passenger paid for gas and the driver agreed to split the whole mileage cost 3 ways. So the check will be pretty nice even though the game fee is only $65. That distance isn't common for playoffs, but we commonly have games around 100-150 miles for playoffs.

Rich Tue Feb 23, 2016 09:11am

The truth is, you can't let getting or not getting particular assignments define your career. I can't work 50+ games and let that year be defined by one game I didn't get to work.

I worked state two years ago. I wasn't better then than I am now and it does no good to look at the people who are going this year and ask "what do they have that I don't?" Others could've asked that about me 2 years ago.

I know what I value in an official when I hire them. Only the people that make those deep playoff assignments knows what they value.

Welpe Tue Feb 23, 2016 09:31am

It is that time of year....I have a question for everyone
 
Knowing Texas, there probably wasn't a worthwhile flight over that distance. That's not that unusual really. Not ideal but it happens.

BNR nailed it. I used to get really wrapped up in these things and found it doesn't help. I've found a sense of peace with being focused on my own individual improvement and looking at what other officials do only in how that can contribute to that improvement.

Smitty Tue Feb 23, 2016 09:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 982071)
Knowing Texas, there probably wasn't a worthwhile flight over that distance. That's not that unusual really. Not ideal but it happens.

I work for an airline so it would have cost me nothing to fly. We have another playoff game tonight that is 500 miles away (Pecos, TX) and I don't know who they were able to get to go there from Dallas on a Tuesday. I would have volunteered but the flights to the closest airport were not going to get me there unless I left here early this morning and spent the day there. Not worth it. But that will be a nice fat check for someone.

Welpe Tue Feb 23, 2016 09:39am

That's what I meant by worthwhile flight is the schedule and proximity of a decent airport (not always a given). Sometimes it is easier just to drive....but maybe not 500 miles!

By the way I flew through Dallas the other day. It felt like coming home for a few hours...even if it was north Texas. ;)

SD Referee Tue Feb 23, 2016 09:46am

Lots of politically correct answers on here and I have to say that I agree with all of you. Very good answers.

The original post asked what we think makes an official better than others. In my opinion a better official is not noticed during the game. Too many D1 officials get overly dramatic with their signals and mechanics. They want to be noticed. Not doing that in high school makes you "better" in my opinion. Nobody is there to watch us.

A better official has great mechanics. You know what they have when they blow the whistle and you know where the ball is going to be and/or how many free throws will be coming. Great mechanics with confidence. That makes you better.

A better official is in shape and can get in position. That doesn't mean younger. Older guys can be in great shape in get in position too. If you aren't in proper position, you can't possibly see the whole play and get the call right.

A better official doesn't call any "game stoppers". Did that player shuffle their feet a tad when there was nobody within 8 feet of them? Maybe. But don't call that. That's a "game stopper" and kills the flow of the game. That goes hand in hand with how you call a game. To say that calling a boys game is NOT different than calling a girls game is not right. Boys can play through a little more than girls can. Calling a great game with little to no game stoppers makes you better.

A better official doesn't whine about other people and their assignments and just goes out and does the best job they can. That's what I do. I pick things to work on all the time and take care of myself while working to make sure that my crew is on the same page.

Those qualities are what makes an official "better" in my mind. I have no doubt that some politics go into it as well. It's hard to make changes and take out some of the good ole boys when they just aren't as good anymore to put in some new blood. In my area, we have been trying to get some of the old guard out for new blood as the old guard just couldn't do the job anymore. It's finally happening and I think the results have been great. I consider myself the new blood and I just received another state tourney. I must be doing something right.

Smitty Tue Feb 23, 2016 09:57am

I also think how far you go in post-season is relative based on where you're located. If I had stayed in Oregon, I am fairly certain I would have made it to a state tourney by now. I will never make it to state in Texas. I say that based on the number of officials who make it from the areas I've lived in as well as the fact that this is a much larger state and there are just way more people who are more deserving in my association. I'm not upset by that - it just doesn't always tell the whole story of whether you're "better" than someone who lives in a different area.

Dad Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smitty (Post 982077)
I also think how far you go in post-season is relative based on where you're located. If I had stayed in Oregon, I am fairly certain I would have made it to a state tourney by now. I will never make it to state in Texas. I say that based on the number of officials who make it from the areas I've lived in as well as the fact that this is a much larger state and there are just way more people who are more deserving in my association. I'm not upset by that - it just doesn't always tell the whole story of whether you're "better" than someone who lives in a different area.

This can be a major factor. There are so many variables going into who gets playoff games, but in some areas there's just not a lot you can do. If you can figure out the correct path you'll have a shot, but it's rarely ever going to be just because you're a good official.

However, in the end, if you're not getting the games you want there could be a lot of stuff holding you back. Getting good playoff games, or probably any at all, has a lot to do with who votes for you and how you're viewed.

Are you a good partner? If partners remember you and want to work with you again then you're probably fine here. Officiating isn't about you, but the crew. The assigner wants to know, or should, that his go to officials can work well on any crew.

What do coaches/ADs/etc think? There are some officials who are insanely fit and great play callers but they are just awkward when it comes to communication/relations. There are some great officials who are hot heads and it holds them back. Or they just think they're a gift to man kind and shouldn't have to communicate with anyone on a humane level.

TLDR: Assigners want to trust whoever their putting on the game. From what I've seen, they usually have a large pool of officials that can call a good game. Calling a good game is only one piece of officiating, though depending where you are it could be a small or large one.

WhistlesAndStripes Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers (Post 982065)
300 MILES?!? My God man, they should fly you there for that one. What was your travel reimbursement if you don't mind me asking?

I got an invite last week to go work a regional tournament about 350 miles away. And driving is not even an option. There are no roads going in there. So a $500+ plane ticket will get me there. One other official from our association is going as well, and I think there will be a total of 8 officials. 3-man crews. 3 day tourney. Working 3 games per day. Not a bad check when it's all said and done.

twocentsworth Tue Feb 23, 2016 03:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 982033)
My question is for those of any level, what does it mean to be better than another official in your mind?

1) Calling plays correctly
2) Mechanics
3) Calling plays correctly
4) Managing the game properly
5) Calling plays correctly
6) Calling plays correctly

Let's be honest...if you can't get plays right, absolutely NOTHING else matters.

Rich Tue Feb 23, 2016 04:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by twocentsworth (Post 982141)
1) Calling plays correctly
2) Mechanics
3) Calling plays correctly
4) Managing the game properly
5) Calling plays correctly
6) Calling plays correctly

Let's be honest...if you can't get plays right, absolutely NOTHING else matters.

I rarely agree with you, but I do here.

Getting plays right makes game management and all the other stuff easier.

I was having a chat with a fellow officiating geek last weekend and we were talking about some stuff. And I said, "Playcalling is underrated." And to me, it is.

JRutledge Tue Feb 23, 2016 04:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by twocentsworth (Post 982141)
Let's be honest...if you can't get plays right, absolutely NOTHING else matters.

I do not totally disagree, but there are plays we make that are considered subjective by the participants. If we call a T on someone, it is subjective. We do not always give those out because we missed a call, but what a coach or player thinks. We can get all the calls right that does not mean we will not have to deal with some BS. And even more, the video tape might be the be the only way those participating knows we got it right. It does not work all the time at the time and we all know this.

Peace

jTheUmp Tue Feb 23, 2016 05:20pm

I've always tried to just control what I can control, and whatever happens from that happens.

I can control:
My rules knowledge
My judgement and understanding of philosophies of playcalls
My weight
My mechanics
My court appearance, demeanor, and attitude
My promptness in accepting assignments
Limiting my turnbacks, keeping my schedule up-to-date, and if I have to turn back an assignment, I do so with as much advance notice as possible.

Pretty much everything else with respect to playoff assignments/state tournaments/etc is out of my hands... so I'm not going to worry about it. If I get playoff games, great. If not, so be it... I'll watch them on TV and see if I can pick out things that those officials are doing that I need to add into my game.

twocentsworth Tue Feb 23, 2016 05:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 982145)
I do not totally disagree, but there are plays we make that are considered subjective by the participants. If we call a T on someone, it is subjective. We do not always give those out because we missed a call, but what a coach or player thinks. We can get all the calls right that does not mean we will not have to deal with some BS. And even more, the video tape might be the be the only way those participating knows we got it right. It does not work all the time at the time and we all know this.

Peace

I agree. Too many officials (and typically ones that are not as strong/good as others...) cause more of their own problems vs problems that normally present themselves during the game. The BS that you speak of is oftentimes CAUSED by the official.

I've worked w/ several officials this season that cause friction between themselves and others (coaches, players, partners, etc.) simply by the way the act/talk/behave. It boggles my mind...and these are guys that have worked state final games!

I, along with my crew, strive to be the calmest person in the arena. That's the goal anyway...

(I'll probably need to be "calm" in a few minutes as anything other than face/face verbal communication tends not to be very effective...I'm sure plenty of others will come along shortly and misinterpret my comments above.)

JRutledge Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by twocentsworth (Post 982147)
I agree. Too many officials (and typically ones that are not as strong/good as others...) cause more of their own problems vs problems that normally present themselves during the game. The BS that you speak of is oftentimes CAUSED by the official.

I've worked w/ several officials this season that cause friction between themselves and others (coaches, players, partners, etc.) simply by the way the act/talk/behave. It boggles my mind...and these are guys that have worked state final games!

I, along with my crew, strive to be the calmest person in the arena. That's the goal anyway...

(I'll probably need to be "calm" in a few minutes as anything other than face/face verbal communication tends not to be very effective...I'm sure plenty of others will come along shortly and misinterpret my comments above.)

I agree for the most part.

Peace

packersowner Wed Feb 24, 2016 01:56am

There are post-season games where I think to myself, how in the hell did that guy get that game?m And I can say that there are nights where others are probably thinking the same thing about me.

Dad Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by packersowner (Post 982160)
There are post-season games where I think to myself, how in the hell did that guy get that game?m And I can say that there are nights where others are probably thinking the same thing about me.

This is the assigners job. Why even worry about it? I've never worried about it and it paid off.

Unless I'm critiquing officials, because they asked for it, I'll just look for what things they do really well. Then decide if I want to steal it or not.

I'm going to attribute my success to not giving a s*** about anyone else and only worrying about how I can get better. Even if it's minuscule.

Kansas Ref Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:36am

It is natural human emotion and curiosity to question why you did not get selected to ref any district level or state play off games--especially when you thought you've done all that was required during the regular season and/or season prior to qualify for such assignments (i.e., punctuality, getting calls correct, resolving conflictual issues, managing the game well, and decline no turnbacks. Thus, you may be at a severe loss for a rational explanation--especially when / if you discover that some other ref who [in your judgment] seems inferior or is lacking in certain above-cited qualities. This is why tentative explanations such as: "good ole boy network" persist in the domain of officials, causing some refs to feel as though regardless of how good they are they will never be selected for such assignments.

Dad Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 982212)
It is natural human emotion and curiosity to question why you did not get selected to ref any district level or state play off games--especially when you thought you've done all that was required during the regular season and/or season prior to qualify for such assignments (i.e., punctuality, getting calls correct, resolving conflictual issues, managing the game well, and decline no turnbacks. Thus, you may be at a severe loss for a rational explanation--especially when / if you discover that some other ref who [in your judgment] seems inferior or is lacking in certain above-cited qualities. This is why tentative explanations such as: "good ole boy network" persist in the domain of officials, causing some refs to feel as though regardless of how good they are they will never be selected for such assignments.

I disagree and don't think taking this line of thinking has much success. If someone bitches to me about it I tell them to get better. If they think they are already great and can't get better then I found the problem!

Good ole boy networks make a lot of sense. Getting playoff games isn't as simple as, "I make good calls, blah blah blah!" Lots of officials are good at calling a game.

Kansas Ref Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad (Post 982214)
I disagree and don't think taking this line of thinking has much success. If someone bitches to me about it I tell them to get better. If they think they are already great and can't get better then I found the problem!

Good ole boy networks make a lot of sense. Getting playoff games isn't as simple as, "I make good calls, blah blah blah!" Lots of officials are good at calling a game.

*The issue at hand here (viz. in this thread) is not a disgruntled ref saying "he can't get any better as a ref". That is a whole nother issue when we start talking about whether or not ref feels as though s/he has reached the epitome of their reffing skills. However, the critical question pertaining to this post / thread is: a disgruntled ref holding the opinion that: "I know that my reffing skills are at least equivalent to Ref B (who got a tourney assignment) because I have reffed with Ref B before or observed Ref B in games". And, all things being equal--save for Ref B being a good ole boy--, Ref B got the assignment, so why did I not get selected?

And, we all here know and understand that lots of refs are excellent at calling games, never turning back games, doing a fine job etc. Another factor could be gender. I had a ref tell me that his assignor said he had to select a female ref for certain tournament assignment just to check off the 'gender equality' box. And this particular ref was good and the other selected ref was a two year experienced person.

Raymond Wed Feb 24, 2016 01:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 982212)
It is natural human emotion and curiosity to question why you did not get selected to ref any district level or state play off games--especially ....

Natural curiosity and human emotion can be overcome. When one puts them to the side and focuses on making one's self better, good things eventually follow in this line of work.

Dad Wed Feb 24, 2016 01:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 982218)
*The issue at hand here (viz. in this thread) is not a disgruntled ref saying "he can't get any better as a ref". That is a whole nother issue when we start talking about whether or not ref feels as though s/he has reached the epitome of their reffing skills. However, the critical question pertaining to this post / thread is: a disgruntled ref holding the opinion that: "I know that my reffing skills are at least equivalent to Ref B (who got a tourney assignment) because I have reffed with Ref B before or observed Ref B in games". And, all things being equal--save for Ref B being a good ole boy--, Ref B got the assignment, so why did I not get selected?

I just find these two very similar. Just because I think, and even if it's true, I'm better than another official getting playoff games doesn't mean I'm the best fit. Said another way, being able to call a game well just doesn't mean matter much with how many good calling officials there are.

Why don't assigners want to give you games?

Why do coaches/ADs prefer someone else over you? Is it because you have no idea how the system works and only want 5A+ games? Maybe you're not getting any 1A-4A votes -- here that matters.

Why do fellow officials not want to work with you? There's a strong correlation with officials wanting to work with you and voting for you come playoff time.

Are you disgruntled and annoying to people around you? Probably.

Are you charismatic? Are you fat? do you wear glasses? Are you short? Do you look athletic? Do people like you? Don't think these things matter? They do. Maybe you think you pass all these tests, but in reality you don't. Maybe your running looks really awkward. Maybe you're just awkward in general and don't know it.

I could say a million other questions that go into who gets games and who doesn't. Note, this is completely useless and the reason most said people have a hard time moving up.

Who cares? Work on your own game. It'll pay off. Not getting where you want to go? You're probably not working hard enough. Work hard or shh.

biggravy Wed Feb 24, 2016 08:37pm

I received probably the best post season assignment this year that one could ask for in my area. I think being good at the basics cannot be overemphasized. My five areas to work on this year were:

1. Slow down. See the whole play and give good preliminary signals. Tell the story.
2. Really try to see shooting action better. Protect my shooter but referee the defense. Let players block shots.
3. Control my facial expressions. I've noticed on tape when I'm concentrating I look mad sometimes.
4. Use my voice better. When appropriate talk to coaches and players. Verbalize my calls, shooter, throw in spot, etc. loud enough to be heard by those on the court.
5. Game awareness- knowing when we hit six fouls, making sure the clock starts, knowing when a timeout may be coming, etc.

Sure these are all really basic things, but I decided to work on the basics this year. I also lost 40 pounds from last year and am in the best shape of my life. I think that matters a lot. I'm also blessed to work with some great officials. I ask for honest feedback and try to get better every night. I emulate those who call state finals, college games, and anyone I can learn something from. I used to think there was a "good ol' boy network". Now I'm not so sure. Hard work does seem to pay off in my area.

BillyMac Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:23pm

Scoreboard Watching ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by biggravy (Post 982270)
... knowing when we hit six fouls ...

That was my big goal this past season. Don't count on the table to tell you when we're in the bonus (although most tables do a good job of doing this). Keep your eye on the scoreboard. No correctable errors. Non calling official identifies the shooter, and gets the players lined up, while the calling official is reporting to the table.

Camron Rust Thu Feb 25, 2016 02:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 982218)
However, the critical question pertaining to this post / thread is: a disgruntled ref holding the opinion that: "I know that my reffing skills are at least equivalent to Ref B (who got a tourney assignment) because I have reffed with Ref B before or observed Ref B in games". And, all things being equal--save for Ref B being a good ole boy--, Ref B got the assignment, so why did I not get selected?

That person, making the judgement of themselves vs. others, is often simply wrong.

There have been many studies done that consistently show many people over estimate their abilities relative to their peers. In fact, one such study I remember reading some years ago found that 80% thought they were better than average in their group. So, at least 30% of the people overrate themselves. That doesn't account for some small number that thinks they're below average despite actually being above the average. And that doesn't provide any information on those were actually above average but put themselves higher within that half of the group than they should be.

I would venture to guess that the numbers might be even higher for referees.

Sometimes the cold hard truth is that the other person is just better.

So, what can a person do? Realize that there are things that can be improved....keep working and getting better. If a person does that, eventually, the games will come. If they don't come, then the person isn't fixing the right things, or they buried themselves so deep in a hole that they can't escape their reputation.

BillyMac Thu Feb 25, 2016 07:06am

Well, That's The News From Lake Wobegon ...
 
... where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 982295)
There have been many studies done that consistently show many people over estimate their abilities relative to their peers. In fact, one such study I remember reading some years ago found that 80% thought they were better than average in their group.



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:48am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1