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-   -   Duke @ North Carolina 3 Plays (Video) (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/100911-duke-north-carolina-3-plays-video.html)

JRutledge Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:44pm

Duke @ North Carolina 4 Plays (Video--added a play)
 
Play #1:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/h-pbcUiYYYE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Play #2:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/MP1pJj-t75w" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Play #3:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/odVVpx_DIco" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Play #4:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/dyWdBUZxJAw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Peace

Gish Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:14am

1. In the RA. Correct call
2. Acquired LGP and maintained it. Correct call
3. Hits his arm. Correct call
Looks like some good officiating by some good officials

JeffM Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:57am

I agree with all three calls

Camron Rust Thu Feb 18, 2016 01:26am

The 2nd was really close...the defender had LGP very early but then moved toward the offensive player a little before contact and was still coming forward at contact. Technically, that makes it a block. It wasn't much, but it was there.

Blindolbat Thu Feb 18, 2016 04:01am

I like all 4 calls.
The interesting question is in #1 what most people have if the RA wasn't in play.

#olderthanilook Thu Feb 18, 2016 07:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blindolbat (Post 981401)
I like all 4 calls.
The interesting question is in #1 what most people have if the RA wasn't in play.

That's what I was thinking, too. To me, it looks like B1 attained LGP a millisecond before A1 began to jump for the layup.

Charge, unless B1's heel(s) are in the restricted area, which is inconclusive from the video, imo.

griblets Thu Feb 18, 2016 07:55am

1. PC (NFHS); Block (NCAA)
2. PC
3. Travel on spin...initial pivot is right foot, picks up, puts down

Raymond Thu Feb 18, 2016 08:47am

1) Block

2) PC

3) No travel and no foul

4) Illegal jump stop (that no one is going to call) and a foul

Smitty Thu Feb 18, 2016 08:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 981410)
4) Illegal jump stop (that no one is going to call) and a foul

That's a good one. I never noticed till you mentioned it. These videos are really helpful to see things that I wouldn't always pick up. Glad you mentioned this.

ballgame99 Thu Feb 18, 2016 09:06am

1. traveled twice on initial possession/take off. skipped with right foot (pivot foot), then lifted pivot foot before dribbling. then I have a block with the defender coming forward.

2. looks like an easy PC

3. left foot is pivot so no travel, got him on the arm.

4. jump stop is barely illegal on slow mo, but not calling it live, got him on the arm.

griblets Thu Feb 18, 2016 09:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ballgame99 (Post 981414)
3. left foot is pivot so no travel, got him on the arm.

Pause at the 0:25 second mark of the video. Right foot is pivot while left is still off the floor. On the spin, right/pivot is picked up, then back down before shot or foul.

This is a travel I've been trying to better identify this season.

deecee Thu Feb 18, 2016 09:36am

All good calls. I don't see an illegal jump stop on the last one, it looks good.

Smitty Thu Feb 18, 2016 09:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 981424)
All good calls. I don't see an illegal jump stop on the last one, it looks good.

The feet don't come down simultaneously.

BlueDevilRef Thu Feb 18, 2016 09:52am

I'm going to comment without looking at anyone else's comments.
#1- good call on it being RA block. Although, I did agree with Bilas last night (don't shoot me) that it could have been a no call, not really that much contact.
2-flop. Thought so last night and still do today.
3-there was contact on arm/wrist but I could see a no call
4-I would have a foul as well. I would have rather seen Grayson give the ball to Luke trailing for an easy layup but that is my fandom talking.

BlueDevilRef Thu Feb 18, 2016 09:56am

Overall, I thought the game was officiated very well. For those of you who watched, would anyone have had a T on Brice Johnson for hanging on rim on his first two dunks? One rebound and one putback? My thought was in nfhs it would have been T both times but college gets a little more leeway. Thoughts?

Raymond Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef (Post 981431)
...
2-flop. Thought so last night and still do today.
....

That's your fandom talking also. ;)

BlueDevilRef Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 981434)
That's your fandom talking also. ;)


I knew lots would think that and at least someone would say it but I really don't think there was enough contact to have a foul either way. I like to think that I would believe that if the teams were reversed as well. [emoji3]

Da Official Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:17am

Real time I like all 4 calls!

Slowed down...the only call i would change is #1 as defender gains LGP a half of a tick before A1 leaves the floor. High school that is a charge. (I don't speak on college or NBA. Ha.)

walt Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:21am

#1 RA Block (NCAA) NFHS PC
#2 PC
#3 Foul
#4 Foul (in slow mo, looks like travel for feet not landing simultaneously but real time, no travel, foul)

JRutledge Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Da Official (Post 981441)
Real time I like all 4 calls!

Slowed down...the only call i would change is #1 as defender gains LGP a half of a tick before A1 leaves the floor. High school that is a charge. (I don't speak on college or NBA. Ha.)

The official pointed to the floor on Play #1 to indicated he had him over the RA. That is the main reason it was likely called a block. I agree in HS this would have been likely a different call.

Peace

deecee Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smitty (Post 981427)
The feet don't come down simultaneously.

I don't know what your expectation is for simultaneously because ALL jump stops would be travels. Calling this not simultaneous is a nit that I'm never going to pick.

What's the fascination with travel calls? Out of all the hero calls a hero travel call is the rarest of them all, and usually involves a clear cut travel (like a switch of the pivot foot while a player keeps pivoting). I used to call a lot of travels but after watching guys that were in positions that I wanted to be in NOT call as many I noticed a pattern. In talking with them and from instruction I have come to accept that picking NITS with travels is not what is expected, nor does it make one a great official.

This rule is not 100% but it does cover 98-99% of real time application for me. I make sure I get the ones that Ray Charles in the last row would call. I try my best to call the ones that give a clear advantage to the offensive player and ARE obvious, and the rest I'm ok missing. Because I bet that we get more travels called incorrect than we do when we don't put air in the whistle.

By the letter of the law I'm sure our HS or even college games have way more travels that go uncalled but I just don't focus as much on those calls as I do with everything else I have to. I stick to calling the obvious and if I have to justify my call with a "well he picked up his dribble a hair before he lifted his XYZ foot off the ground and then a lace of his pivot returned to the ground so I have a travel" I'm focusing on all the wrong things.

Simultaneous - eh close enough. I can also tell you that the more athletic the players the tougher it is to pick up their pivot foot as they are so darn quick. For the love of me I don't want to take a possession away from a team on a borderline guess or 50/50 call.

Multiple Sports Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:47pm

Well Stated
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 981459)
I don't know what your expectation is for simultaneously because ALL jump stops would be travels. Calling this not simultaneous is a nit that I'm never going to pick.

What's the fascination with travel calls? Out of all the hero calls a hero travel call is the rarest of them all, and usually involves a clear cut travel (like a switch of the pivot foot while a player keeps pivoting). I used to call a lot of travels but after watching guys that were in positions that I wanted to be in NOT call as many I noticed a pattern. In talking with them and from instruction I have come to accept that picking NITS with travels is not what is expected, nor does it make one a great official.

This rule is not 100% but it does cover 98-99% of real time application for me. I make sure I get the ones that Ray Charles in the last row would call. I try my best to call the ones that give a clear advantage to the offensive player and ARE obvious, and the rest I'm ok missing. Because I bet that we get more travels called incorrect than we do when we don't put air in the whistle.

By the letter of the law I'm sure our HS or even college games have way more travels that go uncalled but I just don't focus as much on those calls as I do with everything else I have to. I stick to calling the obvious and if I have to justify my call with a "well he picked up his dribble a hair before he lifted his XYZ foot off the ground and then a lace of his pivot returned to the ground so I have a travel" I'm focusing on all the wrong things.

Simultaneous - eh close enough. I can also tell you that the more athletic the players the tougher it is to pick up their pivot foot as they are so darn quick. For the love of me I don't want to take a possession away from a team on a borderline guess or 50/50 call.

Deecee,

Very well stated....It is obvious that you are attending camps and people are teaching you not only how to officiate this play but how to keep yourself out of trouble in the process.

There are enough people in the avocation that will call a travel on this play....it is because of them that you will have "job security" for a long time !!!!

rockyroad Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:54pm

Love the fact that the C hustled his butt down the court and was able to get the call on that last play!

Raymond Thu Feb 18, 2016 02:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 981459)
I don't know what your expectation is for simultaneously because ALL jump stops would be travels. Calling this not simultaneous is a nit that I'm never going to pick.
....

Jump stops are either properly or improperly performed. I officiate in the hometown of Allen Iverson, so I've seen plenty of examples of properly executed jump stops. Even the guys I used to play pick-up ball with know the difference because it is a move that a lot AI admirers have tried to perfect over the years.

I didn't need slow motion to tell Grayson's jump stop was improper, but I also acknowledged that no one is calling this one a travel, including myself.

Camron Rust Thu Feb 18, 2016 02:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 981497)
I didn't need slow motion to tell Grayson's jump stop was improper, but I also acknowledged that no one is calling this one a travel, including myself.


Agree.

PAlbc Thu Feb 18, 2016 02:58pm

Jump stops aside, can someone please explain why play #3 isn't a travel before the foul?

I realize that slow motion isn't great since officials have to make the calls in real time, but the camera angle is blocked from seeing everything clearly.

Agreeing with griblets, If you stop the video at 25 sec mark, ball is in both hands, right foot is pivot foot. He then proceeds to put down the left, lift the right and then puts it down again after the spin move.

Travel?

Since the foul happened after the travel then the contact on the shot shouldn't matter. Yes?

deecee Thu Feb 18, 2016 03:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PAlbc (Post 981501)
Jump stops aside, can someone please explain why play #3 isn't a travel before the foul?

I realize that slow motion isn't great since officials have to make the calls in real time, but the camera angle is blocked from seeing everything clearly.

Agreeing with griblets, If you stop the video at 25 sec mark, ball is in both hands, right foot is pivot foot. He then proceeds to put down the left, lift the right and then puts it down again after the spin move.

Travel?

Since the foul happened after the travel then the contact on the shot shouldn't matter. Yes?


It probably was a travel but in real time I wouldn't catch that. The decision for when the player has gathered to which foot is the pivot is at times impossible and we miss the real first pivot foot. It's just a fact, especially with D1 athletes as they move so quick. If you need to stop the video to see the travel then it's best that you just don't call the travel.

PAlbc Thu Feb 18, 2016 04:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 981503)
It probably was a travel but in real time I wouldn't catch that. The decision for when the player has gathered to which foot is the pivot is at times impossible and we miss the real first pivot foot. It's just a fact, especially with D1 athletes as they move so quick. If you need to stop the video to see the travel then it's best that you just don't call the travel.

I tend to agree about needing to stop the video then don't call it. If the lower angle video wasn't obstructed and you could view it in live speed and still couldn't tell, then fine. I think you would have been able to easily see the right foot set from a lower unobstructed angle.

deecee Thu Feb 18, 2016 04:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PAlbc (Post 981506)
I tend to agree about needing to stop the video then don't call it. If the lower angle video wasn't obstructed and you could view it in live speed and still couldn't tell, then fine. I think you would have been able to easily see the right foot set from a lower unobstructed angle.

I am telling you, with pretty much 100% certainty, that in real time I am not getting this travel. No matter my angle. The gather and pivot happen so fast with the first step it is easy to miss that pivot, and quite frankly expected.

I have never been chastised for letting these types of "travel" calls go. I have been chastised for (1) making them and (2) passing on contact fouls that hinder freedom of movement.

IOW NO ONE cares about missed borderline travel calls past a freshman level game. Just make sure you call the ones that need to be called.

Camron Rust Thu Feb 18, 2016 05:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PAlbc (Post 981506)
I tend to agree about needing to stop the video then don't call it. If the lower angle video wasn't obstructed and you could view it in live speed and still couldn't tell, then fine. I think you would have been able to easily see the right foot set from a lower unobstructed angle.

The main value of stopping video to see if it is or is not an infraction is to be able to learn what infractions look like in real time. Slow the video down, analyze it, determine that it was or wansn't, then watch it at full speed to correlate what infractions or non-infractions look like at full speed.

JRutledge Thu Feb 18, 2016 05:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 981510)
IOW NO ONE cares about missed borderline travel calls past a freshman level game. Just make sure you call the ones that need to be called.

Well coaches care, but then again that is only when it benefits them personally, but you get the idea anyway. ;)

Peace


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