North Carolina St. @ Virginia (Video) 3 Plays to discuss
 

Play #1:

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Play #2:

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Play #3:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/3J7cT2kjxyM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Peace

1) real speed he might not have thought he had gathered the pass immediately

2) No shot, still gathering ball

3) Obvious violation in his secondary

1. Yes, a travel. But it's not getting called at this level. The NBA application of "two beats" might as well be the NCAA rule at this point, considering how it's officiated.

2. Good call.

3. Hilarious travel for even a JV HS player to commit, let alone Malcom Brogdon.

So you think a high school official is getting this?

Peace

1. A travel that is not called as often as it should be. And yes I actually see this called more in HS than either college or NBA.

2. Definitely not in the act.

3. I'm glad one of the three got it.

Play 1 is not a travel under NBA rules so there's nothing to call.

1. 100% a rulesbook travel for NFHS and NCAA. The player caught the pass with one foot on the floor and then stepped with his other foot, then again with the pivot foot. Unless I am mistaken the NBA rules deem this legal footwork as the moving player is permitted to come to a stop by stepping once with each foot. Therein lies the problem. We see so many games on TV in which this action is allowed that we become accustomed to it and don't process it as illegal. I would not whistle this in a HS or college game because it is not expected to be deemed a violation and I would be incorrect by rule. My only defense would be the speed of the play and not being sure whether the foot was off the court on the catch or not.

2. There are two fouls here by two different defenders. The first is a slap during the dribble. The second occurs when the player has the ball in two hands at chest height. If he goes up to shoot from there, I would deem the foul to be in the act of shooting, however he bring the ball down towards his waist and then goes back up. Therefore, this foul is prior to the act of shooting.

3. This is an egregious travel which allows the player to avoid a defender. One of the three officials must get this. Unfortunately, I think that the C needs to provide the help here and that the L can't be looking out there.

Separate question for the forum members. If you have to make a call such as this directly in front of a partner as happened in this video and the partner gets upset with you how do you react?

I would apologize for being that far out of my primary but I happened to see it and felt I needed to make the call. Heck, I remember one time I had to make a back court violation call from the Lead position.

Regarding play #3: If I remember my Men's/NF mechanics, the official opposite the table has last-second shots, correct? If that's the case then the L calling the travel isn't horrible.

The T should have picked it up because he was on the shooter but the L really didn't have much to do with 0:01.7 remaining in the half. The four players in his primary were not - and weren't going to be - engaged in competitive match-ups. The C may have suffered brain lock as he waited for the last shot.

I wouldn't apologize. In fact if my partner got upset with me, or either of us, for calling such a blatant travel in front of him I would ask him what the heck he was looking at. OR even a blind man in the last row saw that one.

I'm not concerned about a partner getting upset. I doubt very seriously any partner of mine would raise his voice to me.

I have no problem with L getting this -- it was obvious, needed, and correct (or whatever the camp-speak is for getting these types of calls)

It could be that the T was screened or distracted by the fly-by of the defender.

On 1, there's no way I'm picking that nit. I'd be the only one calling that travel.

Unfortunately, I'm a agreeing with this. I see, and pass on, several travels a night for this reason.

I rarely see any high school official make this call. When you have high school officials call a simple jab step as a travel, I do not see them getting this one hardly at all.

Peace

So, you have the right foot as the pivot?

I don't know about this. There is what actually happened and what responses are saying they'd do.

I wouldn't call this one a nit. It was a pretty bad travel that makes the crew look bad. Am I getting it as the lead? Ehhh.... not so sure, but I'm glad someone got it on this game.

Why do I hardly ever see anyone call this? And I bet that most people even think this is a travel, even the opponent. Again, I had to slow it down to see the travel, but I had doubts and honestly still have doubts as the issue is when did he have possession. This is not a slam dunk call IMO.

Peace

I read 1 as a 3. No idea why.

I'd probably never make the call on 1 either.

Rich's first sentence is in reference to play #3, which the Lead came an got.

His second sentence is in reference to the first play.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the jab step. I see a lot of officials faked out by jab steps and shoulder fakes.

Not a nit in my opinion. The extra step without a dribble directly leads to a shot that otherwise likely wouldn't be possible. But I'm not calling D1 games so take it for what it's worth.

My only point is that HS officials miss a lot and I mean a lot of travels either that are not properly called or called that did not actually take place. HS officials IMO error on the side of "It looks funny, let me blow my whistle." I think mostly higher level officials tend to not call things they are not sure about. I think this particular play is not called hardly at all, because I have called these in games and I am the only one calling them. I do not think officials at all levels identify travels very well. And I know in this case live I would have probably also passed as I would have had trouble trying to figure out when he caught the ball with the right foot on the floor and would have passed.

I think HS officials love to talk about what is ignored while not being perfect themselves on these calls. That of course is not what I am saying about you, just an observation of when I watch and talk to high school only officials.

Peace

No call

Good call

Get the call right

From watching a season of JV games, this frequently seemed to be the case. One of the "looks funny" calls I would see is a post player making effective use of a pivot to take a large step after stepping the other way -- the distance covered would often seem to draw a travel call rather than the actual footwork.

I despise this philosophy.

To be fair I do not think it is an active philosophy, I think officials call a lot of travels that they hear people yelling about rather than calling it based on which foot is a pivot or they understand why they actually made the call based on the rules.

Peace

Rarely will officials be honest to peers and say I blew my whistle because it looked funny. But, many times on a goofy travel call, I'll ask what they saw and what they say happened wasn't even close to the actual play. aka, they blew their whistle because it looked funny.

I have admitted to this couple times. Like "SH!P THAT HAD TO HAVE BEEN A TRAVEL."

I am a clinician in my state which means I can run camps or participate in camps. I tend to ask officials often about the travels they call, many times they do not give a reasonable explanation where it is clear they saw the play. I have even seen just basic moves being called a travel and the quick or obvious ones not ever called like when players run a bit before they dribble the ball.

Peace

Hayfoot, Strawfoot ...
 

Anytime a coach questions my travel call, or non call, I always respond with which foot (right, or left) I identified as the pivot foot, and what the illegal, or legal, move was. Telling a questioner which foot was the pivot foot tells them that I was really paying attention. Traveling is still the hardest call for me to make (especially at the end of a dribble), I'm sure that I make mistakes several times a season, but my explanation usually satisfies most coaches.

1. I needed the second slow motion to be sure it was a travel, so in real time I'm not calling it.

2. Lots of contact to choose from way before any attempt to start shooting the ball.

3. If he doesn't get that one the crew (including him look real bad at the time, when their commish sees it, and one highlight reals all night).

Video #2
Is continuous motion ruled different at NCAAM and NCAAW than NFHS?
As I read Rule 4-11 and fundamental #17, I error on the side of 'In the Act of Shooting'.
The reason I believe there is a difference is because the tern 'Upward Motion' is used a few times in the posts.
I cannot find Upward Motion in NFHS

It is an NCAAM interpretation. It has nothing to do with the NFHS Rules.

Peace

It has to do with the ball and it's motion in regards to calling a player in the act of shooting or not for the purposes of FT's. The NCAAM rules committee is doing whatever they can to make the act of shooting a very complicated topic. Although they did improve it greatly this year over the mess they created last season.

Play 1: not a travel at any level

Play 2: shooting foul

Play 3: Travel but I wouldn't even be looking there. Not a crew saver.

Huh? How is #2 a shooting foul and why would any official let such an egregious travel go? Also it was a last second shot, what else is there to look at?

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1. Is travel but happens so fast not called by many/most officials. As someone else said, it doesn't do the game any good if only one official calls travel.

2. Player was dribbling ball on first foul and one I think he called. Not shooting.

3. If somebody doesn't call it they look like clowns....player made a 4th or 5th grade move. No call makes officials look like 4th or 5th grade officials...

It's close but I believe the foul in #2 happens during upward motion. Thus I would count the shot.

What else is there to look at? I dunno, maybe his area? Outside the 3pt line right in front of Trail is not somewhere I would be looking as Lead.

#1, not that close but not that blatant either. These are pretty easy to see but I don't call them because others don't. I'm not going to be the only one. They should just change the rule to match what is called. Of course, if they do that, officials will start letting them take 4-5 steps before calling it.

#2, the defender grabbed the offensive player's arm as the last dribble was coming back up to the hand...hard to be in the shooting motion before the player is holding the ball.

#3, egregious and obvious....should have been called by anyone who saw it.

He gets fouls before he even gathered his dribble.

If you are trying to get better, that thinking is not going to help. That travel would have been a ding against the entire crew if it was not called.

On a last second shot what is going on in his area that is more important that the shooter? Officials I work with talk about last second shots and making sure everyone has an opinion. Hard to have an opinion if your staring at the paint for a rebound that is never going to happen.

That's a last second shot. If as the lead you aren't going to help with the feet on a last second shot then what good are you to the crew? The only exception would be if you had "real" action in your PCA.

Christ, a guy works a few college games and he thinks all us HS-only people are crap. Stop lumping all of us under some big, inferior umbrella. Some of us have never had a desire to drive 4+ hours to make $150 - $175 working a D3 game -- that doesn't make us bad officials who don't know how to call traveling.

Onto another subject:

As far as play 3 is concerned, we're under 2 seconds. Damned right I'm looking there. As soon as it's obvious that he's going to be a jump shooter, we need to know where the feet are and, more importantly, we simply can't miss a foul on the jump shooter cause "I'm watching my area." Let's face it -- at the D1 level, the monitor will get the feet -- it's the foul on the jump shooter the crew really can't miss.

(There's an analogous concept in baseball -- a ball that threatens a foul pole -- ALL umpires are going to look at it. What's more important, watching a meaningless touch of a base or that ball that's may or may have not hooked the pole -- everyone needs to have an opinion.)

I have worked college for over 10 years. I also do not have to travel 4 hours to most college games. I do not know that I have ever traveled for a college basketball game that was 4 hours away. Usually about a hour at most and it is because there is traffic to attend the game. This Saturday I will work a game about 20 minutes from my house and if I lived in the same place I did a couple of years ago, I would have 10 minutes at most to get to this particular site. And if I worked D3 ball game alone, there are several within 30 minutes from where I live. But since you brought it up....... ;)

Also, what I am usually talking about is that those that mostly work high school love to tell everyone what is the attitudes of those that work college. And usually the attitude is that certain things are ignored on purpose that are never ignored at the high school level like traveling. College officials usually subject themselves to more camps and more training where as many "high school guys" do the absolute bare minimum to get better if they are not required to attend something. I happen to live in a state that requires camps as a norm for a period of time, but many official only care about what is going to get them a game, not what they need to do to get better.

Since you mentioned it, usually it is high school officials that use these old and antiquated ideas about things like who calls something or who should make a call. Because if you go to camps where mostly the officials are responsible for officials of different levels, those individuals are not stuck into the, "That is not my area" thinking. That is why IMO just in these plays we have had people talking about where and who called something other than why they called it or got it right.

Christ man, no one cares about a sport that is outside and has no time associated with that. I do not want to go leave my house not knowing if I am going to play a game. This is an indoor sport we are talking about, not an outdoor one. No one cares about that sport anyway. ;)

Peace

I'm just saying that a lot of us don't fit under that umbrella. Your sloppy use of "HS guys" as a blanket term doesn't fit for all of us.

2 years ago I worked HS state -- that summer I went to 2 weekend camps as an attendee and was a clinician at a few others -- none of these were in an effort to "get hired" to work college games. Last summer I did the same thing.

I have no real need to do this after so many years of officiating -- I get all the games I want -- but when I think I can't learn anything new, it's time to quit. And I learned from some of the best officials in the country (including a B1G / NCAA tournament official) some concepts of working 3-person that I've taken back to my local association.

Do people exist like the ones you describe? Yes. Some are on this forum. So what?

As far as baseball goes, it's my least favorite of my 3 sports these days. But once March rolls around, I've had enough basketball for a while. If I get rid of baseball (and I might in a few years), what will take its place is "nothing."

Then get mad at those as well that make the claim that what is ignored on purpose at the other levels. Again there are people that make many statements as if HS is pure and what happens at high school would never happen at the college or God Forbid the NBA level. I know guys that will not call the most simple stuff when it is front of them because they either do not know it happen or they are indifferent to making that call.

OK, I have worked high school for 20 years and often deal with high school officials as a clinician. Also many of the officials I work with in high school have college experience as well. I work for a supervisor that assigns high school (some of the most assignments in the state now) and college. Many of his college guys other than the D1 guys works both for him.

In my 20 years of officiating 3 sports, I have learned that mostly what is done comes from all levels and concepts of officiating comes from all levels. I spoke with an NBA officials that came to our association to speak this past fall, almost all their mechanics are the same things we do. Yes, some differences in what you actually cover, but how you call the game or when you call the game outside of your area is basically the same. What is a crew saving call is seen the same. The difference is that those at the NBA and college levels they get a lot of tape to evaluate those things. I rarely get a good high school tape of any of my high school games. I try and many are online, but we rarely get to review tape of our games. It is getting much better than it used to be, but still far behind the other levels for sure.

Even in the OP I qualified that one of the plays was a college rule being applied. That did not stop people from making comments that seem odd. But I digress.

My comment about baseball was strictly a joke in the context of this thread and your comments. I personally do not care what someone does in their spare time. I worked baseball for 15 years and enjoyed it for the most part. But what is funny is that baseball umpires from other levels love to ridicule those that do not follow all the concepts that comes from the Majors when what might apply in HS is not appropriate to be used in the first place. I was always having conversations with guys in baseball about why someone did not do something because some big fat guy in the Majors does something with more umpires and better players.

I have left baseball and have not missed it one bit. It was also my least favorite to officiate and the only reason I was even thinking about coming back is to work another State Final and that was not enough of a reason for me. I would rather work summer basketball. ;)

Peace

Play 3. I don't understand what the trail is looking at. He isn't straight lined, the defender doesn't block his vision. It looks to me like he just passes on a blatant travel.

0/3 :(

By no means am I defending him, because it was so clearly and obviously a miss, but the only thing I can think is that the player's body was between him and the ball, and he incorrectly assumed that the player had to have taken a dribble, because what D1 athlete travels that bad?!!

A slightly analogous situation, the play that I call late or possibly miss the most especially at the varsity level or higher is double dribble. Not because it's a hard call to make, but it catches me off guard every single time, because what player doesn't realize that they can't do that? My only thought for play 3 is that the official incorrectly thought that he simply didn't see the dribble.

Some people just don't think we should be calling travels. :eek: (Not saying that is the case for this official).