Would you put the ball in play or wait?
 

Less than a minute left in the 4th and the game is tied.

V coach: no issues all game
H coach: almost no issues all game, but giving him zero benefit of the doubt for acting like a clown on calls he didn't like

60s TO was called and after the 15s warning V come out onto the court ready to play. Ball is Vs for a throw-in under their basket. H team is also warned at the 15s warning and then is making zero move to be on the court after the 60s TO is over. I'm the lead to administer the throw-in. I walked a few steps onto the court to blow my whistle and tell H coach I'm putting the ball in play. Still blabbing and no sign of rushing his team out onto the floor.

Do you give V the ball?

I issue a ROP warning.

The throw-in team was ready.

If this had gone on all game now's a tough time to start. If the coaches were decent I'd give him another warning "coach we're starting." if they aren't immediate to end the huddle Ill put the ball in play. When they all run out to now play defense Ill also make sure only 5 entered the court.

Usually im in a huddle from the start reminding at first horn and getting a team out. If they still dilly dally i tell my partner to put the ball in. Have only had an issue once but after putting the ball down and starting the count after the players broke the huddle after a warning or two and then just taking their sweet time. Didn't have an issue after that.

Not a chance I put it in play here.

So this one time they take advantage of me? Fine. I'm in the huddle breaking it up but I'm not letting the other official(s) put it in play without a defense.

I've been on YouTube once -- no desire to make it there a second time.

If I haven't addressed it prior to this point in the game, I'm not gonna screw someone at this point either.

One thing I'll normally do is when the 15s warning sounds, as I walk toward the huddle to remind them to finish it up, I'll give a quick short blast on my whistle. If I've noticed a team is normally slow to break up, I'll try to position myself near the head coach so that if the buzzer sounds to end the time out, I'm blowing my whistle again, and this time, the coach's ear is probably gonna ring for a couple seconds afterward. :p

[QUOTE=Rich;980375]Not a chance I put it in play here.

So this one time they take advantage of me? Fine. I'm in the huddle breaking it up but I'm not letting the other official(s) put it in play without a defense.

I've been on YouTube once -- no desire to make it there a second time.[/QUOTE]

Coward :p

There was a football game here a few years ago where the defense was slow coming out.

The R hit the ready-for-play with no defense, the ball was snapped, and the offense scored an easy touchdown.

Sometimes we have to look at the bigger picture.

What are you going to do when the administering official doesn't want to wait any longer, blows their whistle, and hands the ball to V?

Same with me. It may not be in the mechanics book, but you'd be amazed at how a team will react to a whistle instead of just saying, "2nd Horn," or something like that.

Probably, blow my whistle to stop play, crouch down, and tie my shoelace.

:)

"...Hold up, we got a wet spot on the floor here, let me get a towel..." Haha, I've done this before for a kid who took a shot to the jewels and just needed a second to breath before he shot some free throws.

Been there . . . done that. (It doesn't fool anybody, but it seems better for the atmosphere of the game.)

Doesn't matter.

What does matter, though, is that my mindset was NCAAW, not FED.

I would say all the answers above are spot on with this caveat: use your judgement. If you are in the huddle giving warnings, hitting whistle etc and it only takes a few seconds, fine. But at some point, you have to decide when the penalty will be you just putting the ball in play. Would they get this same amount of discretion if it was the first quarter or in a blowout? If yes, then there isn't an issue. If not, need to be considering a penalty for not returning to floor and delaying the game.

Put the ball in play? NOT. A. CHANCE.

I would absolutely give a Delay of Game warning BEFORE I went to ROP...I would do just about anything in my power to avoid administering the ball w/ only one team on the floor of a tied game in the last couple of minutes.

BTW - if you do that, you should know that it's not just a "free 2 points" for one team...it's going to be potentially 6 or 7 points - the coach is going to get a T and the resulting penalty will add 2FT's and the ball...

This would be incorrect by rule in HS.

Considering the source, it's not a shocker...

Ok, but nobody seems willing to answer how long you stand there asking please before you consider it a refusal to play.....not that this would happen in a tie ballgame but worst case scenario, what are the options by rule?

The problem is this should have never gotten to this point. RFP should have been used long time ago. I have even used it after the teams have broken the huddle so that they know we are not waiting on them. But late in the game is too late to start getting all caught up in the RFP when you have not taken care of this situation all game long.

Peace

Based on the original post, this *hasn't* been an issue all game long.

So I'm not bothered if they take an extra few seconds here.

I referenced this a little but here is what I would do. I would wait until the team has broken the huddle and it appears we have 5 players, then give the team the ball. Then when they are not in position to defend, then they will realize we are not waiting. Because if you don't use the rule, then the other team has a right to bitch and complain. Again, but I hope I would have done something long before this to prevent this from getting to that point. I have done this early in a game and usually it ends the problems with us trying to get them out of the huddle.

Peace

I'm probably giving the coach a bit of leeway here, but frankly, if you think you can call a DOG warning here you really need to go back and re-read the DOG rules.

Again, I ask: what penalty is there for this coach? Do you wait a few seconds (I'm ok with that), how about 10, 15,20? At what point is he getting an unfair advantage over the other team? I realize this isn't one of the four DOG situations, so what other penalty is there other than putting ball in play after a few tweets and "ball is coming into play"

One of us is getting into the huddle. If he flat out ignores us, we'll eventually have to put it in play, but I'm going to be able to accurately tell my assigner I did everything I could. The only rule-supported response is ROP, and in some areas it would be the right thing to do. Most places want you to figure out a way to get him back on the court. In the end, though, there's only one remedy, but it's essentially the nuclear option.

Ok. This was what I thought but wanted to hear it from someone else as well. Seemed like guys were kinda dancing around it. I've found as soon as I say "that wouldn't happen in my games" then that is exactly what happens to me so I'm glad we at least have the same opinion about the worst case scenario and the rule

Just grant him another timeout! ;););)

Ha! I almost proffered this earlier as a half ass (1/4 ass?) reasonable option. I know it's not an option by rule but I bet if somebody did it, he wouldn't dawdle ever again

And if he's out of timeouts, make sure you whack him as you do this!! :D:p:D:p:D

Here, we are near the huddles trying to get them out before the second horn goes. It works fairly well as long as you dont have the guy(s) that after the first horn they wander off to wherever they are supposed to be when play resumes.

That's how we do it here, too, but occasionally you get one who just won't break huddle.

He was out of time outs.

As Rich said, wasn't an issue all game until the end.

Did have an issue with the coach being a clown taking 117seconds to get a sub in for a fouled out player. I wasn't the one administering the whole thing so I stayed out of it. V coach kept saying, "It's well past 20s."

Another perspective
 

Dad, so you are saying the V coach has been no problem all game and he has his players ready to play following an important time out near the end of the contest. On the other hand, the H coach has the audacity to act like a clown on all calls that he didn't like during the game to the point that you are giving him zero benefit of any doubt? I would say that is a major issue. And then he has the audacity to take an undeserved advantage by coaching his team in the huddle well-after this important time out ended? In my opinion, you and your partners should have put a stop to the "clowning" antics real early. Perhaps that might have prevented the coach from putting you on the spot later in the game. If not, and you went ahead and allowed V the throw-in, he would have had no one but himself to blame. I'm normally pretty easy going; but when a coach wants to play hardball, I can play that game too.

At the first horn I'll say "first horn, out on the second."

Coach took 2 minutes and nothing was done :eek:

117 seconds? Is that a typo? Because he shouldn't get this type of leeway on something like this. If there isn't someone at least starting to go toward the bench at 20, we're shooting free throws. How in the world could it go that long?

It was around two minutes; I could be off by 5-10 seconds. I'm not sure how it went that long, but I wasn't going to go over and get in my partner(s) business.

In case anyone is wondering what did happen: I was the lead official who gave the ball to V which ended up in an uncontested 2-pointer. At the time it seemed like the correct way to go after blowing my whistle and telling the coach I was starting(Then having him ignore me like he did the official telling him it was time to go). After I got home and thought about the play I regretted how I handled the ordeal. Was probably my most frustrating game(s) all season by a long shot, for several reasons.

1) The girls game was a great game, but was decided after I called a T on the home team. Girl was mouthing off after a call, which I let go. Then started talking again, which I let go. Then slammed the ball down for the entire world to see right in front of the V bench/fans. Couldn't justify letting that one go, so had to deal with the home fans calling me a cheater for the majority of the BV game.

2) Coach, who I gave the benefit of the doubt, asked a "question" which was really just wanting to tell me the foul I had was garbage and would I start making better calls. He only had five players, in his opinion, that knew how to play basketball. So he got upset at about half the foul calls. After my response to his statement that my calls were garbage he left me alone for the rest of the game.

3) The two minutes to replace a player drove me nuts.

4) He ran in front of my partner, on the court, to b**** about a foul he thought was a travel. I would've given him an easy tech here, but partner let him off the hook.

The one interesting part was after I gave V coach the ball, the H coach didn't have the balls to get angry at me. He got mad at one of my partners, who then told him I warned you coach and that was the end of that. Other partner was some D1 guy that worked some voodoo magic on the coach to shut him up. V were up by two, H has the ball and dribbles it out of bounds against a phantom defender. Then, with plenty of time left, the H coach tells his team not to foul???? V dribbles it out, ball game.

I'm just somewhat frustrated at myself because I'm pretty sure I did what I did out of frustration and not thinking clearly. Even though at the time I thought I was.

Someone should of.

Dad--
Sounds like that coach needed to focus more on coaching his kids up and less on your calls. His lack of coaching at the end is what cost him, not you putting the ball in play. I have no problem with any of what you did and would tell you that in the locker room after the game. Even if there was another way about it, if a guy has been that way to me all game and I've obliged him with a long leash, I'm going by the letter of the rulebook which says allows for resumption of play on second horn. If the guy can't figure things out at this point in the season, that's on him. Not you. If he calls off the dogs in a close game where the team still had a chance, that's on him. Not you. Don't lose any sleep over it.

There is sometimes a kind-of middle ground on this. Especially if the inbounding team is in their BC (so it takes some amount of time to get the ball to the FC to score).

After all the warnings you gave, step back, blow the whistle loud and long. Then take a deep breath and wait a couple of seconds and then give the ball to the inbounding team fairly slowly (hand it to them, don't bounce it).

This technique works in the 1Q to help speed things up for the 4Q

I am a stickler for keeping the game moving. On foul outs as soon as I tell the coach I inform the timer to give me a 20 second timer, after 5 seconds (no matter how many times I tell timers before the game that we get a horn AT 15 seconds remaining on all official clock stoppages, even foul outs) I have them hit the horn.

I tell the coach he HAS to have someone at the table before the 20 seconds ends. Closest it ever got was kid got there at the same time as the horn. The few times coaches try and get mouthy I have a standard response, "coach just get me the sub lets not make things worse."

This is not the time IMO to have a discussion with the coach, it rarely goes well. The few times a partner is moving way to slow I will step in to remind the timer and the coach that we need to get moving.

Since I pregame this all the time it's not my fault my partner goes off script. For the most part this isn't an issue.

2 minutes would NEVER happen in a game I'm on. By 30 seconds I've got my nose in the process, by 45 seconds if we are still in the same spot I'm Ting if my partner is unable to get things rolling. What's my partner going to say, "Just because I don't have the balls to take care of business why are you such an a-hole?"

If you have obliged a coach with a long leash the whole game it's not good practice, or fair, to shorten it up so suddenly at the end of the game. The leash is set in the first quarter or the first time a coach acts up and how you respond.

I may grant leeway on the timeout huddle thing in this situation, but there's no way we're taking even a single minute to replace a disqualified player. Unless the sub is on his way as I'm finishing the word "five", my next words are to the timer.

I also know you can't step in and do this when you're partner is handling it, but at some point, I'm probably going to have to consider stepping in. It's amazing how fast they move when that first horn sounds.

You're part of the crew and he's wasting your time too. It's your business.

One of my pet peeves.

Notify the coach, START THE CLOCK. Make sure the horn goes in FIVE seconds. Get to the coach, "I need a sub...."

Dead time in this situation is simply not good for anyone.

I like this!

And pray to your deity of choice that the timer knows how to put 20 seconds on the clock. I had one timer once that gave me the deer in headlights and then set the game clock to 20 seconds. That was fun to sort out.

I count the five in my head. Then I say "HORN, NOW."

For some reason that whole "five seconds" thing confuses timers.

That's not a bad approach.

I thought you were about to complain about the improper use of "should of" instead of "should have"...

But you didn't. You were addressing the handling of the clock for the DQ'd player.
And that is exactly how it should be done.