Score book shenanigans
 

One starter for the visitor was marked wrong. #35 was marked as a starter, coach wanted #32. They had it right in their book, but it got copied over wrong. The R (my partner) had head coach look it over pregame and he signed off on it. Table notifies us pre-toss, Visitor coach whines but puts #35 in and takes #32 out. My partner issues a T! :eek: I notify him that the coach should be allowed to switch them out with no penalty. He doesn't take my advice. So now coach wants to go ahead and start #32 since he has to pay the penalty. I allow it. My partner informs me and coach that isn't allowable and makes #35 start. :eek: I looked it up after the game to make sure; Case play 3.2.2 clearly says the starters can be switched out without penalty, and the only time there is a penalty for this is if coach wants to go ahead and start #32 despite her not being marked as a starter. I did not always have coaches look over the book, but I will be doing so from now on for sure.

If it is a transcription error by the scorers table, it is changed and no penalty is enforced.

Your partner couldn't have been more wrong, at every turn.

1. it's not a T. He provided correct information which is all that is required, scorer transcribed it wrong. Don't punish the visiting coach when the home scorer screws up.

2. Even if the coach did it wrong, it's EITHER a T or the coach starts the player marked. The T is for changing starters.

Your partner needs to go over the freaking rules.

I never have coaches look over the book, because it doesn't change anything. In this case, the coach should have been allowed to use the starter he had marked.

Again, don't penalize a coach because the scorer can't read.

I agree. It sounds from the OP like the visiting team provided the correct information and the home book transcribed it incorrectly.

Cluster#$@# at all angles.

I don't have them look either, for the exact same reason. If you have them look it over after the 10 minute mark (which at least in my area is almost all you ever see for warmup time because they're trying to stay on schedule), then there is nothing they can change, so why worry about it?

I like this approach much better, but is this in the case/rule book? I guess the risk would be some coach changing his mind at the last minute and blaming the table. Agree that none of this is a big deal, but you know how bent out of shape some folks get about this stuff.

Well, what is it that the rule book requires the coach to do at risk of being punished?

The coach only has to provide his roster and starters. If there is proof that what was provided was copied erroneously then we aren't going to penalize a coach.

Usually you ask to see what was provided to the home book.

Not only that, but the coach is, by rule, not responsible for a scoring error even if you force him to sign the book.

I consider the home book to be the book being kept on the home team's bench, if there is in fact one. What really matters is what's given to the official scorekeeper.

Why would you have a coach inspect the book? Cause your partner didn't know the rules?

Take a look at the visitor book.

If the correct starter is marked there, you have evidence that it was a copying error. Allow the change in the home/official book... without penalty... and start the game.

If the visitor book is the same as the home/official book, which has a different starter, then move on to a tech to make a change or let the team switch the starter to what's in the book without penalty.

You don't have to be a hard-ass about everything.

In reality the home book 99.99% of the time IS the official scorekeeper.

This has nothing to do with being a hard ass. The crew chief kicked every rule associated with this situation.

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I was making a general statement about dealing with some situations. I don't believe the rule book allows officials to use the visitor book to prove that it was an error in copying the visiting team's starters into the home/official book. But if a situation like this came up, and I can see the visitor book had the "right" starters, then I'd let it go.

Yes, in the case brought up in the OP, the official messed up.

Actually, it does. The coach is only required to provide the information to the official scorer. That's it. 10-1-1

In the OP, the coach provided the correct information, so there should have been no penalty for the scorer to correct his own mistake.

2-11-11 "...A bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score...."

This is a bookkeeping mistake and should have been corrected without penalty.

This is EXACTLY why you should have a coach from each team review the official scorebook (for correct player #'s AND correct starters) and require their initials as evidence of their approval.

This very easily removes the responsibility from the official scorer and game officials of any mistakes being made. Once the coach approves the scorebook, THAT is when the info. has been provided to the official scorer - there is NO POSSIBILITY for scorer error...

100% disagree. The coach doesn't really have time to look at the list in detail just before the game -- s/he has more important things to do.

False. When the coach hands a roster of all players and marked starters to the official scorers as soon as he gets on the floor 20 minutes before game time, he has done his duty. No need for him to review how it got copied into the scorebook.

So what I laid out is stated in the rule book. I don't recall the rule book saying anything regarding the visitor/unofficial book, let alone it being used to prove the home/official book received a different starting lineup.

Are you just trying to be argumentative with me? I don't get it.

None of this is right. Do you have a rules book?

The official book has to get the names and number from somewhere, they don't just come up with the information from thin air. It most likely came froe the visitor book unless the coach provided the scorer with a different roster.

"most likely"

Again... Where does the rule book say to use that book as proof of starters?

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You can use whatever source of legal information to make a determination for making a ruling. The official book is the fallback when you can't find anything to the contrary. And the official book can be changed.

Man you guys are over complicating this. If I have an issue like this I ask the home (official, whatever) book, where they got the info from. Then I ask the visiting coach what he provided. If the home book used the visitors scorebook and the coach says "No i gave a piece of paper." and then we find the piece of paper case solved. If the coach says I told them to copy the visitors book and that was where the error was, then it's on the coach.

But I ask the coach what he/she provided and use that as my comparison tool. I don't go assuming anything.

In my case I pull varsity rosters from MaxPreps and prep from that.When the varsity coaches show up I have them check and verify everything is correct before the officials are even out there.

As the scorer, "where did you get your information?"

If the coach, or a representative of the team, filled it out directly, call the T or have him start the marked starters.

If the scorer says he got it from the V book, or from a program given him by the team, check the source document.

You need to do this to determine whether the coach met his obligations under the rule.

Again, per rule, bookkeeping errors can be corrected at any time.

At the risk of piling on, this couldn't be more wrong.

There is no provision in the rules that renders the coach responsible for bookkeeping errors just because you had him review the book before the game.

I know bookkeeping errors can be corrected at any time without penalty. No where did I say otherwise. You read that into my posts. And to be honest, you're not the only one that does that, and it drives me nuts. That same thing is done to others constantly, and not necessarily by you.

All I said... AGAIN... is to go ahead and do what you can to avoid giving that technical. Check the visitor/unofficial book... check the lineup given to them on a piece of paper... whatever. Just make sure it's not a mistake.

There are some people around here that need to read a post without assuming there's something wrong in there. If you have a question about what is said... ask. Don't automatically assume you're dealing with a moron.

As others have said, there is no requirement or support for the concept that the coach reviewing and signing the official book absolves the scorer for his/her responsibilities. The official scorekeeper's responsibilities are clearly spelled out in 2-11 and the first line reads "The scorer shall: keep a record of the names and numbers of players..." (2-11-1). Rule 2-11-2 provides the scorer with instruction to "notify the nearer official when there is an infraction of the rules - pertaining to submission of the roster...". The scorer is solely responsible for what is in the book, and the team is solely responsible for submitting a roster.

I'm sure there are plenty of coaches that appreciate this level of prep, but the danger in doing this is that each team is required to "supply the official scorer with the name and number of each team member and designate the five starting players." (3-2-1). If you have gathered the information yourself and ask the coach to review it, the team has not technically met the requirement of this rule. If all of the information is correct, nobody has an issue and the game goes on. If, however, a mistake was made and the coach misses it, we come back to the point others have made about the team only has a responsibility to provide the information. In your situation, the problem is that there was no information provided by the team (you provided it) so what may have started off as a scorekeeper's error can't be corrected because the team didn't provide a roster because you already had everything in the book.

ps: I don't want this to come off as a criticism or condemnation...if this practice works for you, the teams and the referees, by all means continue with it. I only make this point to highlight what others have commented on regarding the responsibility of the team to provide the information.

I made no such assumptions. I'm operating based on this post from you, and admittedly it's driving the way I've read your subsequent posts.

You say the rule book doesn't allow it, the reasonable takeaway is that you're saying the rule book requires a T but we should avoid it if we can.

I'll ask you, is that what you're saying?

So the rule book says "if the starters are wrongly marked in the official scorebook, then check the visitors scorebook to see if there was a transcription error"?

I never said the rule book doesn't allow you to do that. I was saying that it's something an official can do on his own, meaning it's not specifically said to do in the rule book, to make sure it's not a case of the team presenting the wrong lineup/starters. It's a way to prove an error in copying the lineup/starters into the official book, which can then be corrected without error.

I know I'm not the most well-spoken person here, but I don't think it was that hard to understand what I've been saying.

We also have an association heavy on people who ask the coaches to sign the bottom of the book verifying they have checked it (even at the subvarsity level).The officials here seem to like it especially because 99.999999995% of the time you have less than 10 minutes between JV girls and JV boys,JV boys and Var girls,or Var girls and Var boys.

Signing a scorebook signifies nothing.

I totally agree but as noted by others, my assn wants it done, no matter the level.

OK, I think we're probably talking past each other.

The rule book says it's a T to change the starters after the 10 minute mark. If the coach submitted the correct starters to the scorer, but the scorer messed it up, the coach isn't changing his starters. There's no T that can or should be called.

If you think we're in agreement, we can let this go. If you think we disagree, you can still let it go. I'm good either way, but feel free to tell me what you think I'm missing. I'm clarifying again, only for the sake of clarifying.

In the OP, we are obligated to determine whether the coach correctly submitted his roster and starters before the deadline. Calling a T on the coach for changing a starter when, in fact, he submitted the correct starters, is wrong by rule.

I think we agree.

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Who is trying to be argumentative? You have vets telling you how it's properly handled. What source do you use to prove the names and numbers were provided?

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I've actually been conversing with one vet, not multiple vets.

And we worked the misunderstanding out.

I'm not going to reiterate what I've spent the past two days explaining. If you care about it enough then you can go back and read what I've been saying about the words "check the visitor book" being in the rule book.

They aren't, but it's "implied" in the part that says the coach's responsibility is to provide the information. Whether it's the Visitor book, a program, or some internet publication....

I'm not going straight to the visitor book, I'm asking the coach how he provided the information and we'll go from there.

Added: I know we're probably in agreement, I just wanted to address the part about the words not being in the book.

In my opinion, this is where basketball needs to do what volleyball does. In volleyball, the coach has to turn in a roster and lineup sheet to the table at a specified time before the match and before each set.

In basketball, you can easily require the coaches to turn in a roster sheet with a column to list the starters. This would be the only legal way to turning in the roster/starters for a game. That paper, like in volleyball, would be required to stay at the table. Should an issue with the starters / roster come to the officials attention, there is one piece of paper that the officials can use to verify if the roster / starters was properly turned in. If the coach screwed up, they get the consequence. If the scorer screwed up, we fix the mistake and move on. With this required piece of paper, we avoid the confusion of "Where did you get the information from?" It comes from one specific, legally defined location, that is accessible to all parties involved.

Id prefer the baseball/Softball method, lineup card goes to the referee.

The words "check the visitor book" aren't in there, no. The concept of checking the lineup provided by the coach is. In many cases, particularly sub-varsity, the visiting book is that lineup. That is what you seem to be missing. We're not checking the visiting book because it's the visiting book but because it's the information provided by the coach to the scorer (except where he provided something else and then we're checking that).

I can't believe this is such an issue.

Ask the scorer how he got the lineup from the visiting team. If copied from the other book, check the source. And if there's any out, avoid the T.

Do we really need this spelled out in the book?

Wow.

The words aren't in the book, so some officials... especially newer ones... may not think to check the visitor book to make sure of a mistake in copying the presented lineup.

That's why I said what I did. Not because I don't know the rule. Not because I believe in doing exactly what the book says to do, and not doing what the book doesn't say to do. I presented it, as if talking to an inexperienced official, as a way to correct an error without creating more problems.

If saying I was wrong will end this debacle then fine... I was wrong.

Bottom line: this isn't that big of a deal, just sort it out. The only way a T is going to be given is if the coach screwed up and gave the table the wrong info and wants to "pay" to fix it after the 10 minute mark. Otherwise, Coach can make his starters match the book (even if the wrong starter trots out for the jump). Case 3.2.2 specifically says that once the game starts and an incorrect starter started, there is no penalty.

I think I will still have Coach take a look at the starters just to make sure it looks right, although the OP shows this doesn't always work. It also gives me a reason to go talk to each coach before the game without looking like I'm just chatting.

I read every posts in this thread. If you decide to selectively read posts that's on you, but more than ONE VET properly addressed this scenario. Only person I saw being argumentative was you. "Is it in the rule book?" Yeah, it's in the rule book that a roster needs to be PROVIDED to the scorekeeper. Some of us know that the source of that roster is the visiting team's book if they brought a scorekeeper.

Your approach to learning will not suit you well in a camp environment.

I asked a number of times if checking the visitor book was in the rule book. It's not. Like one person said earlier, yes... it is implied to do so, as well as checking other avenues to make sure the lineup/starters were presented correctly. But checking the visitor book is not specifically in the rule book. Which brings us to this...

"Some of us know..."

So you're admitting there are some officials that would not think to check the visitor book to make sure it was a copying error, and not an error in presenting the lineup/starters.

This has nothing to do with me having to learn anything. This is an example of, at the least, a misunderstanding in my intentions when replying to the OP of this thread.

There have been plenty of assumptions made on this board, and those assumptions can sometimes lead to a feeling of being insulted. This is where I'm at.

Thank you for the advice, though.

You really should stop digging the hole you're in.

You question of "Where in the rule book does it say to check the visitor's book?" was taken by many to be an implication that it was not allowable to check the book. If that's not what you meant, you did not express yourself well. (And for that matter, you still aren't.)

There is only one avenue to explore: the list provided by the coach. It doesn't matter if that's the visiting book or the back of a take-out menu. It's the only thing you need to check.

Yep.

Yep

Don't mean to pile on, but this is not correct.

Ditto.

I'm in your association and I don't do it, and I can't recall ever being told that it is something that has to be done. Almost everyone does it, but like others have said above, it is pointless. The coach can initial the book, but it is still on the scorer to enter the roster correctly. I have had partners give technicals before when this happens, even when I try to convince them that the scorer simply entered the wrong number/name/starter/etc.

Personally I think it looks bad because it takes FOREVER. On top of that it's unnecessary.

@zm1283 I agree and don't like doing it but everyone I work with has said that's the way it's done. I've not had to T anyone for any issues, though opposing coaches have tried to get a cheap one when a book keeping error is discovered. I just try to when in Rome it. If everyone I see working better games than mine does it, I try to emulate it so maybe I can move up. I think it's silly but somebody higher on the food chain thinks it needs done, so I do.