Talking with Coaches
 

Wanted to get everyone's thoughts on something I said to a coach.

2-man Boys JV. Right before halftime, I passed on a push by A1 during rebounding action. I felt it was more of A1 holding his position than an actual push on the much smaller B1. Regardless, B1 was displaced, I clearly saw it, and arguably could have had a call. The result was that A1 got the offensive rebound and was fouled going up for the shot.

After reporting the foul, the coach for B is looking for an explanation and I tell him that A1 is entitled to his spot on the court and that I didn't see any contact that I determined to be illegal. The coach didn't argue but clearly disagreed.

At half time, I asked my partner if he saw anything on the play and he said he thought it should have been a push but he wasn't something he felt he needed to come across the lane to get from the Trail. We talked about keeping an eye out for pushing during rebounding in the second half as play was starting to get rougher than we wanted.

As we walk back out for the second half, the coach for B is also walking out and I say to him
"Coach, we talked about the play before half time. Maybe I did miss a push. We'll be sure to watch for rough play in the second half."

My partner and I then go opposite table to observe the end of the 2nd half warm ups and my partner says "you shouldn't say that to the coach -- now we both look bad".

After the game he clarified his point, which was, had I said nothing, we were moving on with the coach just not liking one of my calls but I provided an explanation supported by the rules. Once I said that at half time, I look bad for missing a call and my partner looks bad for having seen the foul and not calling something. Plus if we miss a push later the coach has even more reason to be upset. He felt like you should never go back to discuss plays that are over and done with.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this. Should I have said nothing to the coach? At the time, I felt like the coach, would appreciate the explanation and the honesty would help with my credibility later on if I had to explain another call. However, I can also see the logic of my partner at the time.

After halftime, I wouldn't have brought it up again to the coach. If I think I missed something, I'll tell a coach without hesitating and usually say why (bad position, looking at the wrong players, etc.) Too much time had gone by, IMO.

Now, I'm not sure I would agree that a player who's holding his position is able to displace an opponent. One displacement occurs, he's moved beyond the point where he's holding his position and now he's infringing on the position of his opponent

This particular phrase, regarding your particular situation, I agree with you. Demonstrated your commitment to working on getting calls right.

However, there are other times to "let sleeping dogs lie". That's the "art" of communication.

Never stop learning!

I'm a little torn, as admitting you missed a call is not necessarily a bad thing.

However, enough time had gone by that you probably didn't have to say anything. I don't think I would have, though.

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Personally, if I addressed an issue with a coach, and both of us moved on from it - I wouldn't revisit it later. I don't see the need - we are both professionals and focusing on what's in front of us, not behind us. But that's a personal approach - how you manage your interactions with a coach according to your style/capabilities/experience/etc. is up to you. Some referees use pretty harsh language with coaches and it works great on both sides and I'm jealous; I can't do that without coming across like a jackass and stoking the fire.

Also, are you sure you missed the call? I'm not convinced you did - you had a pretty good view on it and held your whistle. Even your partner said it wasn't enough to warrant a whistle from his side. Why throw yourself under the bus? If it's clear that you guys missed a call (e.g. you were straightlined, your partner had eyes somewhere else, but you can tell by reactions that something happened), then I'd feel comfortable in a discussion right afterward the coach saying "Coach, I was straightlined." But I'd want to do it in the discussion immediately afterwards, not bring it up later.

I don't know if I agree with your partner that it makes both of you look bad. But it doesn't necessarily help your credibility with the coach, since you had a discussion about the call where you defended what you saw, then later say you may have missed it. There may be situations that call for it, but in this case, I don't think it sets you up for any success later.

I wouldn't have said anything. Telling some coaches you may have missed something is telling them you did miss something. Also saying you'll watch something in the second half can be construed as you not watching it in the first half.

From the sounds of it you weren't even sure if the player did anything wrong.

Missed calls are the part of the game sometimes, whether or not we, coaches or fans like it. As time passes, this is taken more into account by most people.

Too much time had passed to revisit this scenario -- maybe if he came out and pressed you about it before the second half started. But he wasn't pushing so you shouldn't be offering (at least not at that point).

Like others have said, you could just be setting yourself up for comments in the second half ("You said you were going to be looking for that!" or worse.) Then it gets geometrically stickier. :eek:

Run into him at the grocery store after the game at some point, now there's a possibility for further discussion, if you both choose. (This obviously could depend on how the rest of the game went, if you feel further explanation was still merited, etc.)

I have a problem with you passing on the foul. Your words: "I passed on a push by A1 during rebounding action"; "Regardless, B1 was displaced, I clearly saw it,"; "The result was that A1 got the offensive rebound "; "as play was starting to get rougher than we wanted."

You, yourself, listed 4 good reasons why you should have blown your whistle, including the 3 we always look for on rebounding fouls: possession consequence, displacement and cleaning up rough play. And on top of that, A1 ends up going to the free throw line.

I don't go back after the fact to coaches unless they have asked for an explanation on a crew play or to clarify why we did make a specific ruling. Both those situations are going to be very rare.

And even getting this late (after the rebound) would be perfectly fine.

I would not admit to a call wrong unless it pretty much happen and then I tell them "I did not get a good look" or "Might have missed that one."

I am not a fan of going back later to a coach well after the fact.

Peace

"Coach - my partner and I talked at halftime and we agree we missed a call against the other team, so we're going to make it up for you in the second half. Oh yeah - we also decided we missed five calls against your team so we're going to make those up, too. OK?" :p

This doesn't surprise me.

So you sell out your partners?

Peace

I have to say this might be the biggest leap anyone has ever made. I don't understand how you can get this from Camron's lack of surprise that you don't admit to missed calls.

The OP is about a play that both him and his partner was involved in directly (and 2 man as well). Only in the conversation he had with his partner did he realize that there was a situation that might have been missed, but again both were involved. This is also why in the OP the partner was not happy with the conversation he had with the coach after the fact. Yes, I would not be happy with my partner as coaches are scoundrels. They take any little thing you say and try to use it against you even if you are telling them the truth. Just like I had a play a few days ago and a coach lied on me to my partner after I told him exactly why I did not make a call he wanted.

Secondly, I probably watch more tape than most here of my games and of games of others. Every halftime and every post game I like to talk about plays we had or situations we were involved in. I even tell my partners "thanks" when I miss something and they have my back on a call. Or I ask them about a play I was not sure of and see if they had a better angle. I do not take those conversations and tell them what we did wrong. I might explain what we had if it is like a T or some unusual situation and why we came to a conclusion, but never going to a coach and informing them of a play "we felt" we got wrong directly to a coach. If there is a play or rule that only involves me, that is a different story. But never will I tell a coach anything about what we talked about and certainly not do so after the fact when several minutes or after halftime and telling a coach anything. There are many other plays in a game and if that is something we missed, I am sure they missed many other plays as well. Even when there are calls I am not happy with, I am not volunteering anything to a coach about my thoughts and certainly not the thoughts of my partners. To do so means you are selling out your partner in a roundabout way.

Peace

No, I admin MY mistakes, not try to BS my way out of them.

So you tell the coach every time you make a mistake or you think you make a mistake?

Forgive me, but that is full of crap. I do not believe you for a second. You would be the only official I know that does that on any level. BTW, I make multiple mistakes every game and many times they are not times the coach complains about (at least from my point of view).

Peace

This is the #1 reason I limit conversations with coaches about past plays. I have caught so many of them lying, about me and about partners, it is rather disgraceful.

I absolutely agree. I limit all of my conversation to rule book language. This helps, because then when a coach makes something up, few people believe it because it doesn't fit with my historic tone and approach to any conversation.

If you historically use long, colorful and unnecessary explanations, it becomes easier to believe the coach who may be mis-characterizing (or simply misunderstanding) your words.

I had a coach this week do just that.

I had a player in the FC with A1 passing to A2. The ball hits A2 in the hands where he does not control the ball and the ball starts going to the BC. Well just the ball is going to the BC, A2 reaches out with the ball in the air, touches the ball in the FC, then tries to shield B2 a little from getting to the ball, then when the ball touches the floor in the BC, A2 goes and possesses the ball in the BC. I call an obvious BC violation. The coach from Team A asks me about the play. I explain basically what happen and the coach contents there was not a violation at first, then tries to claim there was a foul (which neither me or my partner judged). I go back to the coach and explain better about a minute later as he will not let this go. Team A coach then later goes to my partner who was the C on the play and says, "Your partner told me that you can bump another player." My partner without missing a beat said, "He did not say that to you" and walked away.

Actually I felt that was pretty disgraceful as well. But then again this coach has a reputation so there you go. ;)

Peace

How do you admit your mistakes?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I read Jrut's post as, "I don't admit I'm wrong unless it probably happened. In which case I'll say, "Coach I didn't get a good look" or "I may have missed that one."

Usually when I'm not happy about not putting air in my whistle it's because I had a bad look at a play and wasn't confident in making a call.

In short, what's wrong with Jrut's method?

Where did I say that? Do you love making stuff up that I never said nor thought?

You make something up about me all the time, so why is it wrong for me to do the same with you? And you have not answered my question unless you are telling me that you make so many mistakes in games (which I would see as rather bad) that you have to admit them to coaches.

Most calls are judgments and at the time you see it one way, then when you see it on video you might feel a different way. You might get another opinion from a partner and feel a different way.

Peace