Would you make this call? Why or why not?
 

I'm aware of the case book play making it clear on a throw-in the ball can't bounce out of bounds first on a pass.

Here's the actual scenario in my game:

Close game 4th quarter. A1 is in-bounding the ball after a timeout in their back-court(before the timeout B1 hit the ball out-of-bounds attempting to steal). A1 is about 30 inches out of bounds and rolls the ball in-bounds to A2 in an attempt to not start the clock right away. My partner called a violation because the player started rolling the ball out-of-bounds. We talked about it for a bit after the game, but I'm curious what others think/would do.

Before I read the scenario I was prepared to say that I would more then likely refrain from calling the ball bouncing on the end line but if he were to be behind the line by nearly 3 feet and rolled it? Yes I would call a violation.

Ouch!
 

Absolutely make the violation call!

30 inches is a lot of distance to cover and the whole gym probably saw it too. If an official does not put a whistle on the play, then that official has just favored one team over another.

I will bet, that player will never make that same mistake again.

whats your argument for NOT calling it?

I would have called this most likely, but I'm open to discussion on it. Assuming there's no pressure, it's not that hard to do this right. In fact, rolling is the least effective means as it forces the dribbler to bend over and pick it up before dribbling.

Zero pressure in the BC. Coach was asking me a quick question at the time and I didn't see what happened(I was the C). Coach went nuts after the violation call so we talked about it after the game.

Seemed like an interesting play to me.

I think rolling the ball isn't a good idea pretty much ever, especially after a TO.

A case can be made (and I know there are those who will argue against it), that this is one of the examples where "advantage" comes into play on a violation. (And, I am aware of the case play where the inbounder steps inbounds and it says to call the violation regardless.)

For example, I had a play just the other day where the defense was pressing the inbounder and she bounce-passed the ball across the lane line to beat the pressure. but, the ball hit OOB. Easy violation call.

In the OP, as I read it though, no pressure -- so no advantage gained. I can see being a lot less likely to call it.

It would have to be really obvious, and assuming there's no pressure nor advantage.

I don't like ignoring a rule, but sometimes it helps in better managing the game.

Like when I noticed my partner give the ball to the wrong team on a throw in. I actually blew my whistle after the throw in ended, meaning it was too late to correct, but I corrected it anyway saying "I saw it before the throw in ended, but couldn't hit my whistle sooner." Technically what I did was wrong, but it was too obvious an error that if I didn't fix the error it would have created more issues.

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Years ago in my very first playoff regional, we are in the title game and the team that was ranked like #3 in the area was playing the host school of the regional did the very thing you mentioned. The in-bounder rolled the ball starting from out of bounds onto the court. I was shocked and had never seen that and paused. Before it I realized what he had done, it would have been a very late whistle and I never called that. I learned a lesson from that, and always felt would never miss that again. I have never seen anything like that since. But what I have done since is that I do not let slide a lot of these in-bounds that have a kid jumping from in-bounds and never getting out of bounds to make a throw-in, usually after a made basket. I pay more attention now.

No one ever noticed or said anything to me, but it was a close game and I felt bad that I missed such an obvious violation if you are standing right there in basically a 1 or 2 possession game that could have been the reason they won or loss based on not calling the right thing. BTW, the ranked team lost that day, but this play always stuck with me in my career. That has been about 12 years ago.

Peace

I can't disagree with this. No advantage gained, so if somebody went without the violation, I don't see it as something to get fired up about.

I'm not going to cut hairs too fine when there's no pressure, but 2+ feet of OOB rolling is a bit more than a hair. Sometimes you can't save players from stupid.

In a close game, if the opposing coach knows the rule, he'll see it as something to be fired up about if it's no called.

Pretty untenable position to defend.

Agreed. Either way you go is going to unpopular with someone. If you call it as defined, you'll at least make the right person unhappy.

Exactly. Just like earlier this year my partner called a 10 sec violation of a FT shooter. He said afterwards he felt strange making the call and it was the first time in a 20+ year career that he got to 10. However, if someone from the team is counting with you using your visible count how do you explain NOT making the call.

This is probably why I'd call it. If it gets released right on or near the line, I'm probably not going to see it well enough to call it. 2.5 feet, however, is quite a bit. It really depends on how close it is.

And I'm sorry, but a coach really doesn't get to go off on what is a correct call, regardless of philosophy.

Technically, there's no legal way to roll the ball out of a throw in.

I don't understand why one would not call this? If the ball is released by the thrower in and it contacts the OOB side of the court first this should be a violation. Advantage or not. The ball is either OOB or it isn't. Do you also not call back court violations if the defender isn't pressing the ball/player?

This is actually the main reason I wanted to discuss the play. The coach told me he called a violation for rolling the ball in-bounds and I told him rolling the ball is a pass. I asked the other official about the play and he said what most people are imagining the play to be. I was about to ask when did the ball leave her hand and then realized if the ball rolled and never bounced it's basically a violation no matter what.

Do you call three seconds if a player has their toe in the key while their guard is dribbling two inches within the front court? Yes, the rules are there, but I was just curious what others thought about it. You made it clear in your first post what you thought. No reason to reiterate you don't agree with someone maybe passing on it.

I thought it was a good call, and one I may have missed like Jrut said happened in his case. I've never seen it before so why not see what other officials would've done.

I get it. You would've called it a violation.

I'm apparently in the minority here but I don't see myself calling this. The OP says the inbounder was about 30 inches behind the OOB line. Presuming he leans forward to roll the ball, it doesn't necessarily mean he rolled it the entire 2.5 feet.

I just don't see this as an advantage gained not intended by rule though I could be convinced otherwise.

Does anyone have citation for the specific casebook play?

I don't see the problem calling this violation (it IS the rule), however I don't see a problem ignoring it assuming it isn't obvious and doesn't give the violating team an unfair advantage.

It's like ignoring a three-second violation since the player was in the lane for 3.5 seconds.

Some see it as game management.

I would absolutely call it - if it was clear to me. On violations that tend to be rarer like that one, I'm inclined to be close to 100% sure a) saw it right and b) interpreted the rule correctly (if it's a weird play) before calling it. To be fair, an issue that comes up with this is like what JRut mentioned - sometimes my brain is still processing "WTF" and by the time it registers, it would be a really late whistle (had a weird BC violation similar to a video someone posted about a week ago where I ate my whistle). I chalk some of that up to (my lack of) experience.

Just curious - without going looking for them, I try to call every major violation that I see (e.g. traveling, double dribble, carry, even 10-second FT), and don't even think of advantage/disadvantage (as opposed to fouls). But someone brought it up earlier - are there violations that you sometimes let go?

I was thinking about this, too. Like I said, if the ball is released close enough to the line that I don't notice it's exactly location in reference to the line, I'll probably not call it.

Then again, there really is no legal way to roll the ball. It's either going to start from OOB or the thrower will be touching the ball to the floor IB while holding it. Either is a violation.

Is it worth getting? Probably ought to check local listings to be sure, but for me it's not too different from 3 seconds. If the violation happens in the midst of defenders, I'm likely to be more particular about it. If it happens without defenders around, but is still pretty egregious, I'll probably get it.

Check local listings to be certain, but many consider "carry", "3 seconds", and maybe a few others in the context of either advantage or egregiousness. If the kid camps in the lane for 10 seconds, get it even if no one is guarding him (although most areas would prefer you try to talk this kid out of the lane first). Some areas, however, want you to call these by the letter. Do what's expected, because you don't want to be the only guy making these calls.

10 second FT violations should be rare. There's a reason it went viral on Youtube when they called it in the NBA. We all count very slow, and still tend to get to 12 or so before we consider calling it. If I ever have to make this call I will, but I'll be the first official I know personally who's ever made it.

As it is, I'm the only one I know who's called the flopping T, so I'm not worried either way.

Rolling the ball from OOB likely would never happen if the defense was pressing. It would be too risky. It seems to only happen in my experience when the only people in the backcourt are the kid rolling the ball, the kid receiving it, and me. I am probably not calling this...

You're right. I was thinking about this in context of the ball bouncing OOB on a throw-in pass, but forgot to make that distinction. But in reality, there is no legal way to roll it. It would need to bounce, even slightly, if it's done legally.

I still say rolling the ball is dumb. Bounce it so your point guard can dribble on the fly without having to bend over and pick the ball up.

I never really thought about it being illegal till you brought it up - it's just so commonly done...as someone has said before (maybe you) - I don't want to be a pioneer...

Great point!

If it was truly 30 inches of rolling length, then you are probably right about needing to call it.

I didn't word it that way (maybe bob or Rich), but it's true. I apply it to even off the court stuff. There are areas where officials should strive to stand out: presence, accuracy, promptness, appearance, etc. There are also areas where we don't want to stand out.

Reality is, none of us should be watching this play all that closely in the absence of pressure, so it's going to have to be pretty obvious before I even notice it. We're looking ahead to the matchup, we're glancing at the clock/score.

I'm not picturing this the same way. I think it is possible to do both...roll it and not be touching it when the ball touches inbounds. The player just had to release it 1" off the floor. It may "bounce" a little, but I still consider that a roll because that it what it will be doing almost immediately.

Thanks :)

Can I ask what made you call the flopping T? Was it egregious or a player safety issue?

It was egregious. 5th or 6th grade YMCA (been a few years).

Player falls back without any contact (plenty of space between him and his opponent). I warn him, warn his coach, and we play on.

Shortly after that, he's preparing to defend the PG who is coming across the division line. Just as the PG gets within closely guarded distance, this kid falls backward and slides about six feet.

I really had no choice at that point.

Same here, Cameron. I see this several times a season and the ball almost always starts with at least a bit of a bounce. The one time I did see the ball bounce/roll from OOB across the line into the court I passed on it because the team that did it was down 30 with less than a minute to go and I admired the player's effort to continue to compete even though she and her team had zero chance to win.

yeah, I was being a bit technical with that. The 1" off the floor is what we'll normally see.

It's still a dumb way to do it.

This way of thinking is dead. Both the NFHS and NCAA killed it several years ago with directives to call throw-in violations even when there is no defensive pressure.

I said I'd call it. How is my way of thinking dead?

9.2.5 Situation A
Sorry to Adam. I did misunderstand his post. I should have quoted this one.

I appreciate it, thanks.

We live in a time when every call we make can be videotaped from a variety of angles and people, then be edited, zoomed, etc as they see fit. This doesn't mean we change the way the game is officiated, but it does mean at any give nmoment a coach, AD, assignor, evaluator etc. Can end up with a look at something you called/didn't call and you are going to need to justify your decision to someone.

Some people are more comfortable justifying or debating. Others want to be as by the book as possible. The when in Rome strategy is also a good one to employ here.

In terms of the OP. If everyone is focused on the end result of play and it might have touched the end line then I'll probably pass for game management reasons. If as the OP implied it spent 20-30 inches movnig out of bounds you have to get this because someone else is and you are going to have a hard time defending that you didn't see it.

In regards to the "rolling" strategy as a whole. We used it a few times back when 'ghettoblasters' were our sound system at games. We specifically rolled it because the coach wanted the defense to come forward to try to touch it as it advnaced beside you up the floor. This way as they reached for the ball the really atheletic skilled player beside it (not me) would try to time their pickup and shot to that reach to garner a foul call on a 3. If defense played it smart then they could pick it up and go with a flat footed defender immediately in front of them.

I think this is a rather ridiculous statement to make. An official, like me, who is unlikely to have a whistle on this play isnt going to have it for either team so its definitely not favoring one team over another.

One of the two main people who trained me, who assigns HS and some college ball, consistently said "don't make violations your best call." Not saying you are doing that at all here but his point was that while you should get all of the obvious violations, your focus should be on having high accuracy with fouls and judgement on contact situations.

For me, there is some advantage/disadvantage and game management consideration to some violations. I'm passing on some carrying violations, non-obvious travels that occur 60 plus feet away from the basket and with no defender present.

As Adam said, check your local listings. My current assigner for most of the HS games I work supports this "philosophy" and believes this is a common sense approach to officiating.

I realize that many will disagree.

Thanks. This refers to the defensive pressure consideration.

I'm inquiring about the language on the case play that the OP referenced about the throw-in bouncing out of bound first on a pass.

I wouldn't want to win a game thanks to a ticky-tack call like that (again... Not obvious). But maybe that's just me.

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When a team is getting beat badly their 10 second count is more like 12 seconds because my arm is moving slower then 1 second per swing. If someone has an iffy travel away from the benches and it doesnt get her past the defense I dont like to call that either. Just me but game management seems to be a big deal these days.

Local expectations will trump NFHS dictates every time.

This can be dangerous. I have seen games where the ref started being "nice" to the losing team, which assisted the team in successfully mounting a comeback.

Thanks VaTerp. I'm with you on the principle that it's important to get all of the obvious violations. I also want to make sure any violation I call is one I'm very sure of.

So it's an erring-on-the-side-of-slooooow, measured count to 10 on FTs (I've only called one of those, 9-10 years ago when I was in college reffing intramurals). But also, if it's more common violation like a travel or BC, I want to make sure I saw it.

It's a different philosophy than with fouls, particularly on clear PCs/blocks with significant contact. Hopefully I got a great look and know the call is right, but even if I'm not 100%, I'm blowing my whistle to call what I think is best based off what I saw.

The point is, advantage/disadvantage is inherently subjective, and it makes sense that fouls are where you want to focus like the big dog who trained you said.

And this is not really disagreeing with you, but I don't really see passing on a violation as part of game management, like I would on borderline fouls. I call any violation I'm sure I saw, no matter where it is or what the score is. I don't feel like it's in my power to ignore a rule violation. If I see a 3 second call (and I'm sure it's 3+ seconds), I call it (game flow can go both ways). Where trouble starts occurring is when my partner doesn't call it. I know consistency is critical, and it just drives me nuts because the easiest thing from a consistency perspective is to go by one set of policies/rules... the rulebook. But I get it 100% that local listings may vary and I should shut up about it because I am not a big dog. I just moved to a new state anyway, so maybe that philosophy is something I will have to unlearn.

I don't advise newer officials to try passing on violations for game management. It's a rather advanced approach. As Nevada pointed out, the NFHS frowns on it. But as anyone will tell you, in some areas it's just expected as a skill to develop. My advice, unless you're getting evaluators ask you if you really needed to make that travel call, keep doing what you're doing.

Appreciate the advice. Thank you.

9.2.2 Situation A

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 

9.2.2 SITUATION A: Thrower A1: (a) causes the ball to carom from the wall
behind him/her, or from the floor out of bounds and then into the court; (b) caroms
the ball from the back of the backboard to a player in the court; or (c) throws
the ball against the side or the front face of the backboard, after which it rebounds
into the hands of A2. RULING: Violation in (a) and (b), since the throw touched
an object out of bounds. The throw-in in (c) is legal. The side and front face of
the backboard are inbounds and, in this specific situation, are treated the same
as the floor inbounds.