Shooting Technical
 

NFHS Rules. 3 part question. During second quarter team A player 1 receives a T for baiting an opponent. B6 comes into the game to shoot the free throws and B1 goes out of the game. B6 misses the first free throw and B7 comes in for B6 to shoot the second free throw. Can B1 then return and replace B7 without the ball becoming alive or does B1 have to set out at least 1 tick of the clock?

#2 Can B6 and B7 shoot the free throws without a member of team B being replaced? (Have 6 players on the floor)

#3 During warm ups, A1 is charged a T for dunking. A member of Team B can shoot the free throws, but does one of the starting 5 for team B have to sit out the throw in at half court by team B? Can you provide the rule?

1) B1 still must sit (and, now, so must B6)
2) No, only five players at a time
3) Yes, someone must sit out. It's a substitution, so the same rule as always applies.

1. No, once a player is subbed out they cannot re-enter until the clock has been legally started
2. Are 6 players every allowed? What is the penalty for 6 players? And why in the heck would you think its ok?
3. Since there is a T before the start of the game then the coach is allowed to have any player shoot the T's - there is no "sit a tick" requirement here see 3-2-2a.

Any sub that comes out the game has to sit at least a tick off the clock before re-entering the game. The ball being live or not has no bearing on this issue.

Anyone can shoot a T FT as long as they are eligible to play in the game.

Peace

For the third part 3-2-2a would disagree with your answer. The HC is allowed to change his designated starters due to a technical foul.

You are wrong about part three. This exact scenario was in the NFHS Simplified & Illustrated book a few years ago and has been posted on this forum several times. The answers provided by Bob Jenkins are correct.

One of us is misreading the play / question / answers.

A sub (B6) can come in for any of the starters (B1-B5) to shoot the FT(s).

Whoever goes out must stay out through the completion of the ensuing throwin (let's not complicate this with a subsequent foul / violation, etc).

B6 could shoot the FTs and then be replaced by B7 -- B6 would then also have to remain out until the completion of the ensuing throwin

Yes, he is allowed to change the starter, but the NFHS has ruled that the team members involved in the switch will be subject to the substitution rules.
Consult your Case Book before you tell Bob that's he's incorrect.

One used to have to find this in the Simplified & Illustrated book, but this ruling was actually put into the Case Book in 2008-09 as 8.3

8.3 SITUATION:
A technical foul is issued prior to the start of the game and the
game begins with free throws. Non-starter, A6, is brought in to the game to attempt
the free throws and replaces starter A5. RULING: Legal substitute. The ball
becomes live to start the game when placed at A6’s disposal. A6 and A5 are subject
to proper substitution rules. A5 may not re-enter until the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been properly started. (3-2-2a; 3-3-4)

3-2-2

After the 10 minute time limit specified in article 1, a team is charged with a maximum of one t foul regardless of how many infractions of the following are committed (see 10-1-2 penalty);
a. changing a designated starter, unless necessitates by illness, injury, illegal equipment or apparel, etc., or to attempt a technical foul free throw.

is there a reference to where this person must sit? because changing a designated starter would imply just that. A new set of 5 players are starting the game and anyone on the bench is allowed to be subbed in when the FT's are completed.

EDIT: I posted this before Nevada's citation. thank you.

Had a game where one of the starters dunked in warm-ups. Coach (former official) was pissed and wanted to punish him by not letting him start. Told him he could sub him out after the free throws.

You're welcome. Now say, "Always listen to Bob" ten times.

I thought I got him. But the rule as written is a bit misleading as written.

I do not think it is misleading. You looked at this rule and stopped reading or researching. You are not changing a starter because you are allowing anyone properly to shoot a technical foul. You are applying the rule that allows anyone to shoot a technical foul.

Look at 8-3 that makes it clear anyone can shoot a free throw for a technical.

And this is also listed in 8.3 in the casebook, the exact example of this OP question.

Peace

The sentence "changing a designated starter" implies exactly what it does. I do not disagree that we are applying the rule that allows anyone to shoot a T. In this case the wording is very succinct in that we can change one of the starters. This would mean that the player sent in to shoot the T is now considered a starter.

I didn't think the wording was ambiguous or needed more research until Nevada brought up the case play because to me that sentence pretty much spells out what can be done.

You are not changing a starter. You are invoking a rule that allows you to use anyone to shoot the technical foul shots. There is no exception to that rule either, which would be needed if you are going to prevent them from using that player to shoot a FT.

My understanding is a designated starter is someone you list in the book. If you do not change the starter, what you are allowed to do does not apply. Just like if a player got injured or sick, I hope you are not preventing them to have a sub if that is clearly the case?

Peace

Frankly, the wording of 3-2-2 clearly indicates you are legally changing a starter. Were it not for the case play, deecee would have been correct.

The case play changes things, obviously.

This is semantics, but I disagree with you, but they do have the wording to say that anyone can shoot FTs for a technical foul. It does not indicated that is must be a starter in 8-3 on any level or that this only applies after a the game has started or the shooter after the 10 minute mark.

The case play makes it clear you have not violated the spirit of the rule in 10-1-2 IMO.

Peace

I am not arguing either of your points. 3-2-2a's wording is very clear. It allows the CHANGING of a designated starter for a T as one of several exceptions to avoiding a Team T for making such a change. It is explicit and unambiguous and would trump the substitute sitting a tick rule if not for the case play, which I would not have even thought to look up since the rule is so freaking succinct.

The anyone can shoot a T is a completely separate rule that has nothing to do with 3-2-2a. Absent the exception in 3-2-2a I would argue that a designated starter would have to shoot the T's and that 8-3 would not apply since substitutes are not eligible until the ball has become live to start a game. So the first opportunity would be after the first FT on the T.

Here is the thing, the case book says it is allowed and makes that very clear. That is the purpose of the case book to clarify things that might be confusing or may connect rules that may not seem to be working together. That is why I tell people that often that is why you need to read the case book more than the rulebook.

If you are still arguing what the rule should be, that is why the case book has a play covering this situation.

Peace

Rut I'm not arguing either. Im saying that the way the wording of the rule is is confusing, especially with a case play to go with it. The case play says exactly what to do and that's good but it doesn't match up with the wording.

If you changed a designated starter at say the 4 minute mark because of apparel and there was a T for dunking. After the T's are shot the coach says the original starter is now dressed properly and would like to enter the game. Would you deny him re-entry until the clock has been legally started?

Looking at 8-3 adds ambiguity, IMO. "eligible substitute or designated starter"

The case play clears it all up, though.

My comment was not about you arguing (That is not my concern, that is why we are here right?), my comments were to inform you that this issue is cleared up by interpretation. That is the purpose of the interpretations; to clear up loose ends.

And you are not changing the starter, you are allowed to have anyone shoot that is eligible. Subs are eligible. Yes I would deny entry of any player removed until the clock has started first, just like any other sub situation.

Peace