Incredibly Embarrassing Moment
 

I have to make a confession.

This is really hard, not only because I'm re-living this incredibly embarrassing moment, but I'm doing so among some of the best officials I've had the pleasure to converse with.

You might wonder why I would say anything, then. Well, I think it's because I feel awful about it, and a part of me hopes it's not as bad as I've made it out to be in my head.

Here's what happened...

During the 4th quarter of a hotly contested varsity boys contest, one of my partners calls a shooting foul. I switched to the lead, so I was administering the free throws. Just as the free thrower for Team A gets possession of the ball, a teammate of his on the free throw lane pushes a player from Team B that was lined up next to him. My other partner, who is the C during the free throws, calls a pushing foul.

At this point we get together to make sure we correctly handle things at this point. We decide to clear the lane and allow the player from Team A, who originally got fouled on the shot, to attempt his two merited free throws. Following those two attempts, we'll go to the other end and shoot 1-and-1 (Team B was in the bonus).

After the initial two free throws by Team A, with the lanes clear, we go to the other end for the 1-and-1. BRAIN FART TIME! We didn't bring the players on the lane lines for the 1-and-1. The player for Team B shoots the first free throw, and misses. At this point my partner and I know we royally screwed up.

We get together and decide this isn't correctable, so the only course of action is to go to the AP arrow, which goes to Team B (the team that just shot and missed the 1st of a 1-and-1). The HC for Team A is not happy at all, and I can't blame him. All we can do is apologize for our mistake, and let him know that going to the arrow is our only course of action, as we can't assume the rebound by either team, nor can we re-shoot the 1st of the 1-and-1.

It turns out that Team A loses by 5 points. Did our mistake cost them the game? Probably not, but that doesn't make me feel much better about the error. Yes, my partners booted the play too, but I'm very hard on myself and am having a hard time letting this go. I guess I'm afraid this could end up hurting me somehow in the future, whether that's due to the assignor for this league not using me and my crew as much, or my chances of moving up taking a hit.

I'm not looking for sympathy. I just needed to get this off my chest, and this seemed like as good a place to do it as any.

Thanks for reading.

You made a mistake as a crew, you've owned it, and you moved on.

Next time slow down when you have a weird situation to administer and get it right.

Feel better?

LOL. Well, getting that off my chest felt good. But hearing you say that is cool, thanks.

When I've had conversations with newer officials I often tell them the only way you may learn is when you kick something royally and learn from it. I sure have heck have kicked some major ones in my time where I didn't know or understand the rule. After making this mistake I learned what I did wrong and made sure I didn't do it again....

Even as a veteran I've goofed a call/rule or two and still have to learn from my mistakes.

Sounds like as a vet this would apply to you as well. Learn from it and move on because I bet this will never happen again because you made that error in this game.

Sometimes the only way to learn from a mistake is to screw it up royally first. You won't be the first or last official to ever do this too :)

Absolutely not. There's slightly less than a 50% chance (by my unscientific math) that Team B would've gotten the rebound anyway.

As for the rest of it, what Rich said. :)

Thanks for coming to my pity party, guys.

Wouldn't this be a team control foul?

I'd like some additional info on the foul. This push seems totally unessessaru and unrelated to basketball. Would an intentional foul have been the better call?

Whoa. I'd say you're right. That's big-time awareness right there!

Clear the lane, shoot the 2 FTs for A, award Team B the ball at the spot nearest the foul?

Turns out the two players are cousins, and they were messing around. Why they did that during a close game boggles my mind, but rules are rules. Could it have been more than a "normal" foul... absolutely.

Rule 4-12-2

A team is in control of the ball:
a. when a player of the team is in control
b. while a live ball is being passed among teammates
c. during an interrupted dribble
d. when a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in

Part "d" makes me think that there is no team control when a player of a team has disposal of the ball for a free throw, because if that's the case then why did the NFHS say that in "d" without saying something similar for a free-thrower?

That's my interpretation, and it could very well be wrong.

Yeah, team control foul. No FTs for Team B. Ball OOB nearest foul.

Look up player control and see if "A" gets you there. IIRC, it's "Holding a live ball inbounds."

Because it's covered in Part A. The free thrower is holding a live ball. That's the definition of being in control.

For a throw-in, disposal doesn't necessarily mean "holding" the ball. It just means "you have a reasonable opportunity to be holding the ball, but are opting not to." Disposal for a FT means you already have the ball.

Oh, I get that. When I first look at the rule book, and saw that, I was with you. Part d of that rule makes me wonder. Like devil's advocate, right?

And if it wasn't a TC foul (say it happened just before A1 got the ball), the it would be ignored if not intentional and an intentional technical if not ignored.

and with that I'm more embarrassed.

Although your moniker says Stubborn Member, you do a fine job of accepting responsibility.

I had this happen earlier this season when I misapplied the exception to the backcourt throw-in rule. :( Once I saw that I was wrong per the case play with my exact same scenario, I told myself, I guarantee you won't get this wrong again any time soon.

In that past, I had a game where I called a shooting foul followed by a T, and my partner then administered the shots in the wrong order. Last night, I had the same situation (shooting foul followed by a T). Given last night's partner was a rookie, I made sure we met to discuss the T, and I made sure he knew we shot the original three free throws first, followed by the 2 for the T.

When I first came here it wasn't like that at all. So it's a throw-back nickname. LOL

Only one of the criteria has to be met. In this case, "a" is met so it's TC.

The good news is, the right team got the ball.

The bad news is, they had to give up their next AP possession to get it.
The other bad news is they got it under the wrong basket.

Seems like a wash to me.

Absolutely not.

Did A make all their freethrows?
Did A makeall their shot attemts?

If not, it's on their shoulders.......

I agree with others that the foul by A2 was a TC foul by rule. As such, the subsequent free throw attempt by B was an unmeritted free throw, which would have been a correctable error. Since he missed the FT attempt, there was no real affect on the game.

The only effective error I see was going to the arrow. As others have pointed out, the lane should have been cleared, A1 allowed to attempt their 2 FT's, then give B the ball at the end line. Team B should have kept the arrow, so if anything your crew's error benefitted team A, not team B.

We've all been there at one time or another, so don't let it eat at you - learn from it and move on.

Next Time BryanV21 Is In Connecticut ...
 

This is the most important part of the post. BryanV21 and his partners got together to collectivity try to figure out an odd situation, a situation that few of us see over the course of a season, or even over the course of several seasons. It's also important to note that the error bothered BryanV21, he didn't just shrug it off. I'd work with BryanV21 in any game, at any time.

Not Distracted By The Misdirection ...
 

Greatest post we've seen on the Forum in a long time. I bet magicians hate Adam.

1. Officiating mistakes happen to all of us. We hate it. We feel awful, but it is never as bad as we think. We are just harder on ourselves than any non-official can imagine.
2. The foul by A2 is indeed a team control foul. The NFHS has a case book play on this. I'll let you find it.
3. No one else has brought this up yet, but per NFHS interpretation A2 also committed a FT lane violation when he fouled, so that FT is now over and A1 should have only been awarded his second FT attempt wit the lane cleared. Therefore, your crew actually awarded two unmerited FTs in the administration of this.
4. Your attitude has improved a tremendous amount since you first posted on this forum. You are also going to become a much better official because of that. You are now willing to learn from others and your mistakes.

Free Throw Violation ???
 

OK. I'll bite. Assuming A2's foot didn't cross any marked lane planes, what's the free throw violation?

Caseplay (below) isn't exactly the same as the original post, but it's the closest that I could find:

9.1.3 SITUATION I: During a free throw by A1, B1 pushes A2, then B2, who is
in a marked lane space, is in the lane too soon: (a) before A1 has started a freethrowing
motion; or (b) after A1 has started a throwing motion. RULING: In (a),
the foul by B1 causes the ball to become dead immediately, therefore the act, by
B2 is not a violation. A1 is permitted the specified number of free throws, after
which the foul is penalized. In (b), the foul does not cause the ball to become dead
immediately, so there are two infractions. Even though the foul occurred first, the
violation is the first to be penalized if A1’s try is unsuccessful. (4-11; 6-7
Exception c; 9-1 Penalty 2)

How about that?

Friday night was perhaps my worst night of officiating, and last night was one of my best.

From what I read in the rule book it was not a violation. 9-1-3 d. says "no player shall enter a marked lane space or leave a marked lane space by contacting the court outside the 36-inch by 36-inch space until the ball is released."

The player that committed the foul did not contact the court outside of his marked lane space.

And part g. of 9-1-3 says "a player occupying a marked lane space may not have either foot beyond the vertical plane of the outside edge of the lane boundary, or beyond the vertical plane of any edge of the space (2 inches by 36 inches) designated by the lane-space marks."

His feet did not leave his marked lane space.

There may be case plays that say otherwise, but looking at these rules I don't see a violation.

Almost Always Listen To Nevadaref ...
 

I'm sure that Nevadaref has something up his sleeve. I can't wait for his response. He'll probably pull something out of the 1953-54 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations?

I agree. I don't see a violation here. Nothing in the OP indicates that A2 ever left his FT lane spot.

As long as you have started the 10 second count, the ball is at the disposal. What if the free throwing team stays in the huddle of a TO? The official will perform a 'resumption of play' procedure and place the ball on the free throw line.
I'm just saying......

And in the context of the OP, there would be no PC or TC in that case.

Nevadaref is saying this would have been a violation based on NFHS interpretation. I'm not sure where the interp is, or when it was issued, but I'm willing to be convinced.

Car 54 Where Are You ???
 

And I'm sitting on the edge of my seat waiting for his citation.

Interesting (?) that "disposal" creates TC during a throw-in, but not during a FT.

Oversight or intentional?

Possibly because "disposal" on a FT is going to lead to either a timeout or a violation?

I recall the NFHS including something about contact between opponents in marked lane spaces being illegal in a recent POE. I and several others disagreed that any contact at all was illegal, but that is what the POE said. I thought that there was some equating of this "foul" to a violation too by the NFHS. Now I'll have to check and see what I can unearth.

NFHS PreSeason Guide
 

Nevada,
You might be referring to the NFHS 2013-15 Pre-Season Guide// Three-Person Mechanics. On page 4 there is a short article about using "preventive officiating to avoid potentially ugly situations during free throws. Keep player's hands off each other and know where you need to be looking to catch potential violations." Below that is a picture showing a "plane" between opponents along the lane with the caption, "Imagine a plane between hashmarks on the lane. Keeping an eye on illegal action on the lane lines can help clean up potentially ugly situations."
Although they did use the word "violations" I don't believe the interpretation in the picture meant reaching through the plane is a violation. I believe the POE was to clean up the unnecessary hand-to-hand contact that often occurs in order to avoid uglier situations.

This is called just about never.

Really? That is pretty much the basic FT violation. I see it called.

My bad. Around here it is just about never called. F/JV/V1A-3A you're lucky to see it called 1/10 times it happens. I'm not entirely sure why, but I just always pregame it so it doesn't happen.

How in the world do you prevent a free throw violation from being called in your pregame?

Other way around. I pregame we call it based on rule. The officials I work with, on average, are probably in their late 40s early 50s. Not sure if this is a reason or not.

Are you saying you pregame not calling what is, by rule, a violation?

I pregame calling it.

Girls, Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them ...
 

I've seldom called it, but I warn them to prevent a violation if I think it's going to be a problem. I don't know why it's a gender issue, but girls always want to lift the heel of their shoe over the mark on the lane line. It's never boys. It must have something to do with having two X chromosomes.

+1

Also the ladies seem to do the box out after a three point attempt and stick thier Butt into the shooter.

I appreciate it. I assumed you weren't just pulling that out of thin air.

Would the team control foul cause the ball to become dead immediately similar to a field goal attempt?

Yes.

So then the free throw should have never happened and it should have been B ball at the spot nearest the foul?

No - think it through.....this was the first of two merited free throws...

Are you saying/asking that we take the ball from Team A's free thrower (the TCF nullifies the pending FT) and give it to Team B for a spot throw-in?

What rule are you using to take away A's free throws?

Hmmm ... interesting scenario. If there is no player/team control when the ball is at the disposal of the free-thrower when using the ROP procedure, wouldn't that mean that a timeout could not be granted? Only outcome ... violation.

No, the rule states that a team may be granted a time-out request made when the ball is at its disposal.

Has been a while since I read op. Didn't realize it was first of two.

Yes I was asking that. I forgot the original scenario and didn't realize it was the first of two.

I was thinking that a team control foul causes the ball to become dead. How can the free throw take place if the ball is dead?



Can the free throw still be scored if a team control foul has already happened?

Really athletic girls have three of them.

http://static01.nyt.com/images/2007/...gi.xlarge1.jpg

I would agree with you, but as Bob and Adam point out, the way the rule is written, it doesn't say that the ball is at the disposal of the player on a free-throw.

4-12
ART. 2

A team is in control of the ball:

d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.

And if that's the case, there's no team control either. If that premise is correct, how can a time-out be granted when using the ROP procedure for a free-throw? Good discussion for a different thread though, since that's a different topic.

TC isn't an issue for granting a time-out.
It is never sufficient nor required (other than as a consequence of having met other requirements).

5-8-3
a. the ball is at the disposal or in control of a player or his/her team.
b. the ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified....

Requirement A does not require TC to be in place. In fact, the lone exception here seems to be the case where the ball is at the disposal of a FT shooter.

No. It says that disposal does not create TC (on a FT). There is still disposal.

No, it cannot. The ball becomes dead, now you have a false double foul. You simply clear the lane and then administer the FTs that were due before the foul followed by the penalty for the 2nd foul.

And since the second foul was a TC foul by the lane line, Team B gets the ball for a designated or non-designated end line throw in pending the outcome of the final free throw. 6.7 Situation B.