And 1??
 

Boys Varsity game.. 4th quarter and maybe 3-4 minutes remaining. Visiting team is winning by 30.

Visiting player drives to the basket and the lead calls a foul and counts the bucket. I'm the trail and didn't have a foul call as I had incidental contact. I'm not concerned on the foul call and whether or not it was a foul but the lead counts the bucket. The contact that I saw was certainly before the shot. He had already signaled and counted the bucket.

After the game I asked him about the call and he said he believed the player had started his shooting motion and started to go up. I still disagree and disagree strongly. The home coach also disagreed and had a few words to say to let the other official know this wasn't the NBA but he was down 30 and that point so he didn't put up that much of a fight.

Any thoughts on how best to handle? Appreciate any feedback.

I think you handled it just fine. You asked your partner what he saw, he was sure about it, so let it go.

Even if he did miss the call, so what? We all miss calls.

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Why did you disagree - it's kind of difficult to help based on what you said. He thought the player was in the act and you didn't. Why?

The NBA rule is different than the NFHS rule?

Why are you disagreeing strongly with your partner about a judgment call he made? Give your opinion constructively and move on.

I wasn't there so I don't know what the contact was, but the most I would say is "do you think you could have passed on that contact considering the game situation?"

All I'll say is this:

Too many officials put fouls "on the floor" when they should be calling fouls in the act of shooting. What coaches think about these situations means little to me.

Whether he should've passed on the foul is another question altogether. The score shouldn't dictate that, though. What's incidental in a tie game should be incidental in a 30 point game when it comes to protecting the shooter.

I believe the player took another step before even rising up for the shot.

No concerns about the contact and whether or not it was a foul. Only reason I mentioned it was I didn't have a whistle on the play. Had I called a foul of my own, I probably would have came in talked it over with him and went with a ruling of a foul on prior to a shot attempt but since I didn't even have a whistle, I didn't feel like I could go in and overrule a call of my partners, even if I disagreed.

BNR beat me to it.

My main questions to ask my partner - or myself - would be:

*Did the call fit the game?
*Was the call needed?

The reason the home coach disagreed is he was catching a butt-whipping and you - meaning the crew not just your partner - gave the other team a +1 that he felt was iffy with under four minutes left in the game. If it was contact Stevie Wonder could see from the last row, go for it. If not, let the game die a natural death and the losing HC won't have anything to say.

I'll be first to admit I don't follow the NBA closely so I don't know the actual rule but I believe the NBA continuation rule is different than high school...

Is it not?

I do not feel like poring through the NBA Rules Book this morning (too many things to do around the house) but if my memory serves me correct (and I am getting senile as I get old), while the wording is different from the language in the NFHS and NCAA Rules Books, the application is the same in all three rules codes.

I am sure that someone more versed in the NBA Rules will come along and enlighten us.

MTD, Sr.

No, you couldn't and shouldn't overrule him. The only possible way to avoid shots on the play would've been if it was a double whistle and you could have brought that information to your partner when you came together.

Doesn't matter. That's not the criterion / ia.

You can never (well, maybe once or twice in the "responsibilities of the Referee" section), overrule your partner.

You do realize that originally you said you passed on the play b/c you thought it was incidental contact? So you disagreed with your partner's judgment twice on this play, whether it was even a foul and whether the contact occurred during the shooting motion.

What did your partner say in regards to why it was a foul and why it was in the act of shooting?

Correct, but I wasn't so much concerned with the foul call as I was the awarding the basket to count. There was certainly some contact... I passed as I thought the offensive player created the contact but there really wasn't an advantage gained so I had a no call.

All he said was that he thought the player had started the shooting motion at the time the foul occurred. This was only the 2nd time I had worked with this gentleman. He explained what he felt he saw, I think I saw something different. Didn't figure we needed to go any further at that point.

At the time of the game, I had contemplated coming together with him to discuss the call. Sounds like I made the correct decision and letting it go.

If his "thoughts" are correct, then he made the right call -- and he used the right logic.

That's true for almost all such calls.

Partners frequently have a different look.

Last night I had a blocked shot right in front of me. I had it clean up top. Trail did not, called a foul. I was pretty damned close to the play and did my best to get a good, open look.

Defensive coach right in front of the T said nothing to him. Nor to me.

I'm sure my partner was right. Drive came out of his primary and I'd have no problem with either one of us getting something on this play.

I really don't get into the business of evaluating my partner's calls during a game.

I agree with what Rich said regarding the fact that to many officials incorrectly DO NOT award shooting fouls when they should.

Also from what you have posted I would suggest you brush up on what defines a shot and continuous motion. Taking a step does not negate a shot attempt after a foul.

Did B1's drive to the bucket originate in your primary as the T? Your post seems to imply that it did.

Regardless, I think you handled it well. All you can do is ask your partner what he had and listen to his response, and move on. There is learning in that exercise alone, even if a discussion doesn't ensue.

Do you get game films through HUDL? Film review is an outstanding tool.

Yes the drive did originate from my primary.

No game films through HUDL.

This doesn't matter. And I do hope the home coach didn't know you disagreed with the call.

Of course not, we lined up and shot the free throw and moved on.

Good!

Probably biased for HS but post season games you need officials votes, well, kinda, but they are important. I always ask in a way that says I didn't get a perfect look and want to know if I missed anything. For whatever reason it makes officials love you.

Well said. Not sure there is much you can do about when the guy making the call counts the basket.

You asked him about it and had a conversation. End of story. Best case scenario, it got him thinking that maybe he was wrong and he will do better next time.

It's hard being a good partner
 

You asked for input:

Remembering, on the court you are a team and protect each other! What if roles were reversed? In the locker room a partner asked a judgement question and a judgement answer was given. Share knowledge and agree to disagree then move on. Otherwise, the impression is that you are inflexible.

While on the court there might of been an opportunity to protect a partner with a simple comment to the coach, "I had the same call."

If you want a good partner, maybe start out by "being" a good partner?

Tough situation; compliments on not making public a disagreement.

Hope this helps.

I thought it was hard to be a bad partner. Hah.

It's helpful and i think some good concepts. I'm not sure I could have used them in this situation as I was opposite bench side and really didn't have a chance to communicate with the coach at that moment.

I also don't think I would want to tell the coach I had the same call if I didn't have a whistle. Maybe just a slight reword of it looked like a good call to me. Small difference in wording but back to your point of having your partners back can be helpful. I had a coach ask me last night about a travel and I gave him that response to back this same partner.

My $.02. I only ask my partner what they saw on a play IF

1. It was in my primary, I had a good look and passed OR
2. I see something really funky, usually in their primary and there is NO call

Other that that I don't care. I do get upset when a partner makes a call in my primary that is a marginal call that I may have passed on, especially since I always pre-game that we are responsible (1) for getting the calls right and (2) if we have to reach make sure its' one we have to get.

I also don't speak for my partner to a coach, and we pregame this as well. Unless I HAD the same call I never tell a coach that. IF he has a question about my partners call I instruct the coach to ask my partner the first opportunity he has. I hope my partners offer the same courtesy.

It's also a pet peeve when a partner makes a face at a call they may disagree with. I have worked with a couple guys that are such ball hawks I have had to actually make off ball calls in their primary while I have the ball in mine.

Trust your partners. If their judgement gets them into situations, let them handle it until they ask for help.

"Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement."
- my mother

I would not recommend lying to a coach. There are other ways to be a good partner. If you disagreed with the call (but, as if often the case, can do nothing about it) find something better to say. In the soccer context (I'm a soccer ref but merely a basketball dad), I've used things like, "coach, he's forty yards closer than you are and had a great angle." "Coach, he had a better look at that than either you or I did." "It's been called the same way all day." But I will never lie to a coach. Period. YMMV. (This also means I very rarely will say it was a good call -- I don't want a negative inference if I don't.)

Yep

The primary was definitely shared.

Question for the OP: did the crew pre-game that scenario?

Yes. The NBA rule is that continuation begins as the player exits the locker room. :rolleyes:

Fixed it for ya!

More seriously, my sense has always been that the NBA applied "continuation" more generously than NCAA and especially than HS in games that I have watched. But I'm not sure how much of that is an actual difference and how much is perception and levels of athleticism. In HS, from the comfort of the stands, I share the view that someone expressed previously that far more errors are in not considering the act of shooting to have begun than vice versa.

The NBA is entertainment. Offense is entertainment. The one NBA camp I attended the clinicians made it clear that once a player starts to gather it is assumed they are going to attempt to score unless completely evident otherwise. They would rather ERR on the side of shooting than not. Their threshold is COMPLETELY different from HS and NCAA.

It is? I have been told by former NBA officials or current NBA officials that the rule is applied pretty much the exact same way. The only issue is the NCAA started getting caught up in this "upward motion" language which basically is applied the same basic way as before but using different language.

Peace

The sentiment I received was from Scott Foster himself. The clinicians were all NBA officials.

OK, but I was told by a former NBA official in my area (I am not giving his name) said that the rule is applied the same way. This person does some evaluation for the NBA currently. This person currently works high school and college games and talks all the time about the application of these rules.
The person in our area that teaches the "gather" is this individual.

I have never been told that the rule in the NBA or shown the rule in the NBA is different.

Oh and the idea that only the NBA is entertainment makes no sense when you look at all the NCAA rules changes and all the accommodations for TV.

Peace

You can talk to your partner in a way that expresses support. As you're switching positions or moving in to administer the FT, a quick "Good get, Steve" loud enough for the coach to hear you does the same thing.

I've had coaches ask me if I had the same thing my partner called, and I only give one of two answers.

"Yes I did."

"I was watching another area."

I have no problem telling a coach I had the same thing even if I didn't have a whistle.

Edited to add: there is a third possible answer, "He had a much better angle than I/we did." I use "we" when the play happens while I'm standing at L or C next to the coach. It's one of my favorite lines.

He called it as lead, there's a good chance he saw contact after what you saw; contact that was not incidental that happened after the shooting motion had begun.

Also, as others stated, whether he takes another step or not after getting fouled is completely irrelevant to the decision on whether his shooting motion had begun. Many layups involve shooting motion that begins prior to the final step being taken.

Even though NCAA and NFHS don't use the words "gather" (I don't think), the concept is pretty much the same.

Why? A nothing call like this in a game that's been over for a while shouldn't gnaw at you to the point you actually bring it up to your partner in the locker room.

That can only end with negative feelings, regardless of how it plays out face to face.

I have no problem asking about the call just for knowledge's sake. The problem is expessing disagreement. Just say "ok".

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I have no problem with any question about any call. I will sometimes ask directly, "What did you see?" Then when they tell me, we move on. But I might want to know so that I have their perspective. Never accuse or suggest they are wrong, just looking for understanding.

Peace