Full Courter Waved Off
 

From a high school in Montana this past weekend, both teams were undefeated in a great game, and a kid from the home team hit a full court shot at the horn, but the officials waved it off. HOWEVER... upon further review, the news camera just happened to be at the perfect angle to see the ball released with 0.2 on the clock. Tough play, I wonder if the clock didn't start on time, and the official blew it dead knowing that more than 1.0 seconds elapsed. Otherwise I know I'd have to be pretty damn sure to waive off any basket.

The actual shot and replay start at 55 seconds into the video.


Falcons win battle of unbeatens on waved-off 80-footer - KTVQ.com | Q2 | Continuous News Coverage | Billings, MT

To screw this up as a crew if they were going off the clock is really bad. I can't see mucking up this call with .2 on release. Your point is valid and probably what happened.

I assume one of the coaches called timeout before they put 1.0 back on the clock?

Correct.

The officials are not the timers.
The Referee is only to correct OBVIOUS timing mistakes.
Too many people want to get involved when they shouldn't.
The timer is human and not perfect. This isn't D1 with HD cameras and a courtside monitor.
If the timer is close, the officials should not be involved in that aspect of the game.

Agreed. I hope, in this case, it's just a matter of the official getting the call wrong. No way the timing error here, if there is any, is obvious enough to deal with like this.

Watching the 3 officials, I'm just not sure how they came up with 1.0 second.

I had a last second shot at halftime this year I waved off. 0.4 seconds on the clock. Kid caught the inbounds pass with his back to the basket, turned with a dribble, and shot. No chance this took 0.4 seconds or less and I waved it off without really worrying myself if the shot beat the clock. Either it didn't or if it did, the clock operator was in error.

The T may have glanced up at the clock the moment the ball cleared the net. Just stopping the video while watching the clip it appears as though the crew got the 0:01.0 part of things right.

I watched the video without sound. Can you hear a whistle in it? Did you pause it right after that?
I don't want posters to be confused by the college rule of the clock stopping when the ball clears the net. That is not the appropriate stopping point in NFHS games.

The clock continues to run properly after the make, and the first reaction I see from an official comes from the lead, and appears to be at about 0.3. I'm surprised the timeout wasn't granted quicker by the opposite C, seems like a perfect time to be looking for the quick timeout after a basket.

The clock stopping at :01 seems right. Again totally dependent on the request of the timeout by the coach. I have no issues with that being the time on the clock.

Now the last second shot, that is another story.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/PyOGlTzs2fo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Peace

I'll amend the earlier observation: 0:01.0 appears to be the right amount of time if that's when one of the officials - most likely the L since he was the first one to look at the home team's bench - recognized the HC was requesting a time out. I'm with JRut...no issues with the time on the clock on my end.

As JRut said, the last-second shot is another story.

Way to dodge the questions. :rolleyes:

I cannot hear much sound from the highlight at all. The sound is muted big time as many highlights are done. Not sure what difference it makes, it is when the timeout is granted, not necessarily when the whistle blows.

Peace

Wrong by rule!
Of course, you'll never admit it.

Quote the rule?

Better yet here is Basketball Fundamental #16 says:

The official's whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

I will admit something when I see a rule you are referencing and if it does not fit the situation. They change the rules on lag time and nothing says the whistle is the only measure of when the clock stops.

Peace

Timing Mistakes
 

Rule 5-10-1 says:

Peace

What? As to whether I heard a whistle? No. However that also isn't what stops the clock.

How else is it supposed to stop?

You might want to check the actual rule:


In this case, there was no rule justification for putting 1 second on the clock. No official signaled anything at that point.

I wasn't listening for a whistle. I was looking at all 3 officials and trying to find when any of them reacted to a timeout request.

If I'm the old T, new L, I'm looking in the direction of that coach the second the ball enters the net. Just doesn't seem to be a whole lot of awareness of the situation here.

I assume you mean looking at this with the benefit of hindsight? Sure when we slow it down we can say that the official didn't react until 0.3, but considering that the ball was through the hoop at about 1.5 seconds, I can see putting anywhere up to 1.0 seconds back on the clock, assuming the coach was immediately calling for it. The official could've easily had definite knowledge that there was 1.0 seconds remaining when he acknowledged the signal, even if his hand came up late. There is a human error factor here with the official's timing as well, and without seeing instant replay, I can understand the thinking that he saw the request, saw 1.0 second, and went with that.

For the record, I don't subscribe to Nevada's thinking that the whistle defines the timeout. I have put time back before and I will again.

I'm just saying that what stood out to me was how long it took *any* of the officials to react here. To me, just a piece of the puzzle.

Can't see any reason why the shot was waved off, either. 1.0 seconds is more than enough time to make a quick move and get a shot off.

This makes sense to me. I have been in that situation before when I've looked at the clock immediately catch the time and hear the timeout request, then react. I go with the time I saw when I heard the request. Everything they did made sense except waving off the shot.

If you have decided that you are granting the timeout, the whistle is only apart of that equation. And if you know that you are granting the timeout and your whistle is practically simultaneous with the timeout, then IMO you put time on the clock if you see that time was continuously running. The clock ran out in this case, so you should put time on the clock.

Also I see nothing that tells me when or who actually gave the signal or blew the whistle. But when the ball went through the hoop, it was around 1 second.

And I am still waiting for the position that you cannot put time on the clock when you recognize the timeout. All the interpretations suggest is you have definite knowledge when taking or putting time on the clock.

Peace

Why is the new L standing under the basket? There is no reason for him to be there. All the players are on the other side of the division line, and he can't provide any useful information in the position he takes under the basket.

As have I. I'm not going to penalize the team for me being slow to react.

Agree on both. It seems they were not paying attention....and the shot was away in time.

Camron set out earlier 5-8-1. Clock stops on the OFFICIAL'S SIGNAL. That is when the official's arm goes up. As a practical matter, the whistle comes at the same time as the arm goes up. The rule does not say that the clock stops when the coach signals the timeout.

Also, 5-10-1 says. Referee can correct OBVIOUS mistake by the TIMER to start or stop clock when he has definite knowledge. If you raise your arm/blow whistle and see clock continue to run then the TIMER has made an obvious mistake. He did not stop the clock on the official's signal. We can put the time we saw on the clock when we "signaled."

The TIMER is not making a MISTAKE, (and certainly not an obvious mistake) if he doesn't stop the clock on the coach's timeout request. As some others have said, if for some reason I go brain dead and delay signaling, I might very well put some time on the clock. However, if coach calls timeout, I determine there is player control and raise my arm the way I'm supposed to and clock stops, I will not put time back on the clock.

I call timeouts in the first half and fouls etc. The clock stops on my signal. That's the rule. It doesn't stop the exact moment the foul occurs or when the coach signals timeout. We don't put time back on clock in all of those situations and shouldn't at the end of the game either. Imo

I do not believe a single person has said anything about the request is the only reason the clock should stop. We get that the signal matters, but that signal often is not the exact moment the clock stops. And when seconds are of the essence, I am giving them everything they earned. So if they make the request with time on the clock and I am a little slow (and I will be in a timeout situation) they are getting what I noticed the very moment I blow the whistle and signal. And unless you have any evidence that in practice this is not how it is done, I would certainly like to see the reference. We do a lot of things that are not clearly spelled out or even has some best practice kind of approach. And in this case the clock ran completely out, if I am granting a timeout I am not saying my signal was too late and the game is over.

Peace

That struck me as well. All of them looked a bit shocked that the home HC would want a TO. Makes you wonder whether they got together to chat about what might happen before the visiting team's last shot took place.

The timer didn't make a mistake. I'm still putting time back. I look at the clock when a request is made -- that's how much time I'm giving them. If I'm a bit slow in blowing my whistle, I'm not penalizing the team for that.

You and Nevada can live on your island on this one.

I agree with your philosophy, but based on this video, I just don't see how they can put 1 second back. The officials don't seem to even recognize the timeout request until after the horn has sounded. I see no evidence that would suggest they had definite knowledge to put 1 second back on the clock.

Perhaps they just didn't react and blow a whistle. Hearing a coach request a timeout wouldn't show on film.

Pretty harsh Rich. Banishing me to an island…with Nevada... for disagreeing with you. I'm going to invoke the VIII Amendment and it's prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment…my wife would suggest Nevada do the same…:)

And this is where we just don't know without being able to actually ask the officials who worked the game. Is it possible that they knew there was a TO with time left, but didn't know the time and guessed? I suppose, I'd like to hope not, but it is at least possible. So assuming positive intentions from the crew, I think it's easiest to justify in my mind that they saw the request, noted the time, and for whatever reason, were simply late in the visual reaction. (maybe they were just trying to have a patient whistle.......... ha!)

Heh. That's funny, I don't care who you are...

I'm with Rich on this one. Had this last night. I did exactly what he described above. I knew the timeout was coming and was looking at the clock while listening for the coach.