VIDEO REQUEST - OU/WV - Blocking Call - 2nd Half, 5:59 remaining
 

WV In transition, looked like the OU Player had position, outside the RA. Call was a block.

Thoughts?

Here it is...

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Charge. I was hoping for a close one.

Looks like a flop to me. No whistle would be best, but many believe in penalizing the bad actor with a blocking foul.

Fantastic job by the Lead for holding his preliminary signal. This could've easily have been a blarge situation.

The one thing I don't see here....is a flop.

thinking charge here.
Lead did a great job getting back, but maybe hold up so he doesn't get behind that last offensive player...mighta had a better look. didn't matter though. C came out strong and Lead did well to hold his prelim. no matter what the call was. i wonder if they agreed?

sidebar: someone remind me please...difference in NCAA vs. NFHS for setting LGP in relation to the shooter?

Yea, that's not a flop.

No difference. Must be legal before the shooter goes airborne in both rulesets.

Wasn't there a recent rule change in NCAA that related to the shooter beginning or gathering for the shot? Or did it change to airborne? I thought I recalled something along those lines....

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It was airborne, then upward motion, now back to airborne.

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charge

Thanks BNR!

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What was the point in trying to take downward motion away?

I have a block here. It looks to me like the defender isn't quite facing the ball handler until he's airborne. He's ever so slightly turned before them. Take a look at his feet in relation to where the WV player is coming from

You don't have to be squared up on contact. For all I care the defender gets LGP when the offense is at half court. No time or space. No reason to make this a difficult call and officiate if the offense isn't faced the correct way on impact.

What did the defense do wrong?

And by the way he was walking off the baseline, it looked to me like he was going the other way with this one.

I don't think we can say what it was from this view. The C and the L both had much better angles than we had.

Unless I saw and a view form the another angle, I'm going with inconclusive.

This is just like a recent video I watched that looked like a charge over and over, until they showed an endline view that revealed the defender leaning out to get the contact.

I've got a block as well.

There is none.

MTD, Sr.

I noticed that. He looked like he was getting ready to ship it.

From this angle, easy PC (not sure how anybody is getting a block on this video to be honest) and definitely not a flop.

Offensive Charge!
It may be the player-turned-coach-turned official, in me; but on a two on one play, where the ball-handler dribbles 45 plus feet of court and doesn't pass ahead to his open teammate... I'll always reward the defense, on a close play. Any good coach would tell his player: Pass the frigging ball!

It also needs to be noted that the defender had his arms out-stretched, not vertical. Some of that contact occurs with the left arm.

That's what I saw the first few times I watched it - it looked like the main contact may have been on the outstretched arm...but it's hard to tell from the angle of the video.

Seems fairly incidental considering that the bulk of the contact is against the defender's shoulder.

It looks like A1 used his left hand to help elevate himself beyond B1.

Btw, I have a block here since the defender did not have LGP until after A1 is already in his habitual shooting motion and first contact is initiated by B1. A1's left hand comes into play after these two factors.

I did notice that also.

I don't think that's the rule anymore.

It's not. But for fun, I analyzed it from that perspective, and under the rule that only lasted a year or two, this would have been a block.

As it is, we have the torso argument, and the left arm argument. 50/50 from here. I'd love to get a look from C's angle, and I wouldn't question his reasoning regardless because this was very close for lots of reasons.


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That is not the deciding point for when the defender has to obtain LGP under any rule set. Even in the NBA, a defender has to obtain a legal position prior to the offensive player's upward movement of his shoulders to be considered legal. The habitual motion is almost always well before this point. And under NCAA/NFHS rules, a defender must obtain legal position prior to the opponent being airborne. The habitual motion is well before this point at to use this at the deciding point is penalizing the defense.

No call or block. Shooter gets the whole right side of his body (arm and leg) past the defender before the slight contact occurs. If defender doesn't embellish then we have nothing to rule on. He caused the problem so its probably why he got the block in this case.

(And I'm an OU grad...)

This isn't how the rule works. At all. The offense ran into the defense. Defense didn't do anything wrong therefore didn't cause any problem. LGP can start the length of the entire court.

/thumbs up

Thank you for pointing that out.

I'm also refraining from making a conclusive judgement until I see a view the baseline camera. I will say, if I was the slot, I would want my cadence on the whistle to be a bit slower.....to allow the lead a first crack at this play.

Not relevant. If the defender had LGP and legally maintained it (I'm not convinced he did, yet), it can not be a block, by rule. The shooter getting partially past doesn't change that at all. The shooter getting partially past only means that the defender has basically lost the right to lateral movement since such movement would be towards the shooter.

I guess its also how you define "ran into".

Defense "didn't do anything wrong" BUT he did get the block foul.

There was a "problem".....and the official resolved it. Some here say it was done correctly...and some say incorrectly.

Bottom line: On Block/Charges, there are the obvious ones where 90% of officials agree and then there are the ones where officials split 50/50 or 60/40. Its all subjective applications of the rules...100% of officials will never agree.......fun to discuss though. :D

From this angle, it's a clear charge to me, but I'd rather have the view of the official who called.

I would feel best about calling the PC foul here (defense had two feet, facing before A1 was airbone). I have more of an educational question though: as the Lead in a block/charge play, what is the best positioning? What if the play is right in the middle of the key? Do you want to have a view "in between" A1 and B1 as much as possible? Do you want to get more of a straight-lined angle so you can judge the defense's leaning/verticality?

Yes. ;)

IOW, one of those views will be better than the other, but you won't know which until the play is over.

If you think C or T can help, then let them take the view from the side and L can take the view from behind. If not, then I'd prefer a little to the side, but you don't want to be way out wide by the 3-point line.

One thing this angle doesn't and can't reveal is whether the defender leaned to the side and into the shooter or not. That question could be seen clearly form the position of the C or the T...but not the trail (or this camera angle).

Some angles are better than others. Regardless of what position an official takes relative to the players, there is always one blind spot like this. When judging plays like this, the best position is not looking directly between the players as is the case in this video but is actually a straighlined position. That will show very clearly whether the defender leaned into the path or not. Of course, you give up the view of a lot of other possibilities which makes the straightlined position bad. The best position for a single official is thus one that is a diagonal look through the play....again not what we have in the video.

It would take unobstructed views from two angles on every block/charge similar to this play to know with certainty whether the defender was legal or not....one to judge forward movement (looking from the side) and one to judge lateral movement (looking from the back/front). If the defender satisfies both, then they are legal. But you sometimes can't see both from one spot.

Good points CR.....These 50/50...60/40 block charges are never cut and dry. I often catch the defender leaning into the offensive player (who is trying to slide by without creating contact ) effectively becoming illegal and becoming responsible for the contact. A lot of officials however still go Charge on those plays....but its hard for me to do so. Yep I'm THAT guy. :D

I think what makes this place difficult is how the defender 'rises' from his crouched defensive position just before contact. I do believe that this should have been a player control, but the defender rising just short of contact (despite having legal guarding position) gives the illusion that he never gained legal position.

I do think the official got it wrong but it was a difficult play when seen live.