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Old Tue Jan 05, 2016, 12:41am
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3 feet?? Oklahoma vs Kansaa

Is this a real rule? If so, how do you miss this in such a big game as a NCAA official??? For those that missed the game.
Throw in from sideline. Oklahoma throwing in and Kansas defender maybe gives in 3" for the throw in and pass gets defelected to Kansas.
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Old Tue Jan 05, 2016, 12:44am
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This is an issue at these old great courts, Phog Allen, Kameron Indoor Arena. There is no space for the inbounder to take a step back to create space to pass.

Needed to be looked at for years.
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Old Tue Jan 05, 2016, 02:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole4088 View Post
Is this a real rule? If so, how do you miss this in such a big game as a NCAA official??? For those that missed the game.
Throw in from sideline. Oklahoma throwing in and Kansas defender maybe gives in 3" for the throw in and pass gets defelected to Kansas.
It was badly administered but he had more than 3". His shoes were longer than that. The 3' is not measured face to face but from the obstacle behind the thrower (the table). The thrower should have a total of at least 3 feet of space. In this case, he had about 18", maybe 24". On top of that the defender was across the line that was there.

The official should (and did) back the defender up an appropriate amount to allow for the throwin but did nothing when the defender clearly violated the temporary space that had been established.

Raw deal for OU to lose on that.
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Old Tue Jan 05, 2016, 03:47am
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Where is this 3 foot depth rule? Rule 7-6.8.b states "The designated spot shall be 3-feet wide with no depth limitation." That is the only mention of three feet.

The opponent is allowed to be right up on the line. Rule 9-4.3 illustrates the penalty for repeated infractions: "The opponents of the thrower-in shall not have any part of their person beyond the vertical inside plane of any boundary line before the ball has crossed that boundary line. Repeated infractions shall result in a CLASS B technical foul."

BoBo is right on when saying that these old arenas have a big issue. The Oklahoma player looked as the ball in his hands had crossed the boundary (still in his hands) when the Kansas player crossed the boundary/touched it. It's hard to say whether or not he was over the line while the Oklahoma player had the ball behind the boundary line. I'd say it's almost impossible given the lack of space that the Oklahoma player held the entire ball behind the boundary line. It's a big issue, but the refs looked to get the call correct, despite what pundits on ESPN say. It *looked* like a bad call because they were on top of each other - almost no playing court has a OOB area that narrow.

EDIT: should add that NCAA rule is that the opponent may not cross boundary plane until ball has crossed boundary plane while I believe NFHS is that the opponent may not cross boundary plane until the thrower-in has released the ball.

Last edited by wildcatter; Tue Jan 05, 2016 at 04:25am. Reason: Clarification
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Old Tue Jan 05, 2016, 05:44am
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Originally Posted by wildcatter View Post
Where is this 3 foot depth rule? Rule 7-6.8.b states "The designated spot shall be 3-feet wide with no depth limitation." That is the only mention of three feet.
NF Rule 1-2-2 implies the 3-foot protocol on a throw-in (If, on an unofficial court, there is less than 3 feet of unobstructed space outside any sideline or end line, a narrow broken line shall be marked on the court parallel with and 3 feet inside that boundary. This restraining line becomes the boundary line during a throw-in on that side or end, as in 7-6. It continues to be the boundary until the ball crosses the line). The way the rule is written if teams are playing on an 84' x 50' court with at least 3 feet of unobstructed space outside all boundaries a defender on a throw-in would have to - by default - be at least 3 feet away from the thrower as long as the thrower didn't move forward.

NCAAM and NCAAW don't have this language in their codes.
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Old Tue Jan 05, 2016, 06:02am
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Got it. Thanks JetMetFan. Had heard the 3 foot rule for NFHS but couldnt find it at all in the NCAA rule or case books. Think the restraining boundary is to be 6 feet in NCAA if possible but could not find a mention of any protocol changes if not. Was wondering tonight if old courts like Allen or Cameron had their own "ground rules" that weren't publicized when refs would back players up before throw-ins (or they could have just been backing them up to not cross the boundary plane).
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Old Tue Jan 05, 2016, 06:19am
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Originally Posted by wildcatter View Post
Think the restraining boundary is to be 6 feet in NCAA if possible but could not find a mention of any protocol changes if not.
Remember, the restraining lines are behind the end lines. They don't have anything to do with making a throw-in. They're to keep non-playing personnel away from the court.



Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcatter View Post
Was wondering tonight if old courts like Allen or Cameron had their own "ground rules" that weren't publicized when refs would back players up before throw-ins (or they could have just been backing them up to not cross the boundary plane).
My guess is the 3-foot courtesy in NCAA probably began because of courts like Cameron and those at other older on-campus facilities (such as the old Catholic schools that Al McGuire used to call "confessional boxes" because they were so tight).
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Old Tue Jan 05, 2016, 10:46am
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Yikes!! I do not know what the college rule is, but this can't be legal.

KU's Frank Mason III Was Ridiculously Close to OU's Buddy Hield on Crucial Steal | Bleacher Report
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Old Tue Jan 05, 2016, 10:57am
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For high school plays that are similar. No relevance to college.


7.6.4 SITUATION C:

The sideline is very near the spectators leaving little space out of bounds for A1 to make a throw-in. As a result, the administering official has directed B1 to move back a step to give the thrower some room. As soon as the ball is handed or bounced to A1, B1 moves right back to the boundary line in front of A1.

RULING: It is a violation by B1 and will also result in a warning for Team B which is reported to the scorer and to the head coach. Any subsequent delay-of-game situation or noncompliance with the verbal order will result in a technical foul charged to Team B. (10-1-5c)

Last edited by dsqrddgd909; Tue Jan 05, 2016 at 12:06pm. Reason: Clarify that case play is for HS plays that are similar.
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Old Tue Jan 05, 2016, 11:50am
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Originally Posted by ballgame99 View Post
Yikes!! I do not know what the college rule is, but this can't be legal.

KU's Frank Mason III Was Ridiculously Close to OU's Buddy Hield on Crucial Steal | Bleacher Report
Here is what NCAA players other than the thrower CANNOT do on a throw-in...

Quote:
NCAAM 9-4-2
No player other than the thrower-in shall:
a. Perform the throw-in or be out of bounds after a designated-spot throw-in begins.
b. Be out of bounds when he touches the ball after it has crossed the vertical inside plane of the boundary line. Repeated infractions shall result in a CLASS B technical foul (emphasis added).


NCAAW 9-4-2
No player other than the thrower-in shall:
a. Perform the throw-in or be out of bounds after a designated-spot throw-in begins.
b. Be out of bounds when she touches the ball after it has crossed the vertical inside plane of the boundary line.

PENALTY (Both...edited): The ball shall become dead or remain dead when a violation occurs...The ball shall be awarded to an opponent for a throw-in at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred.
NCAAW also has this...

Quote:
Rule 4-11-1g (Delay...definition)
The opponents of the thrower-in having any part of their person beyond the vertical inside plane of any boundary line before the ball has crossed that boundary line.

Rule 10-3-7 (Player/Substitute Technical Fouls) After a team warning has been issued, the opponents of the thrower-in having any part of their person beyond the vertical inside plane of any boundary line before the ball has crossed that boundary line.
The main difference between the two codes is an opponent crossing the boundary line during a throw-in is NOT among the recorded delays in NCAAM. It IS one of the recorded delays in NCAAW, meaning a warning can be issued.
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Old Tue Jan 05, 2016, 12:01pm
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I don't understand why people are posting NFHS rules and case plays since this was an NCAA game.

This is illegal in a HS game. Nothing posted (yet) tells me that it is in an NCAA game.
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Old Tue Jan 05, 2016, 12:17pm
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
I don't understand why people are posting NFHS rules and case plays since this was an NCAA game.

This is illegal in a HS game. Nothing posted (yet) tells me that it is in an NCAA game.
Sure it does. JetMetFan posted the NCAA men's rule, which includes

Quote:
No player other than the thrower-in shall:
a. Perform the throw-in or be out of bounds after a designated-spot throw-in begins.
When the defender stepped on the OOB line while harassing the thrower, he committed a violation.
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Old Tue Jan 05, 2016, 12:29pm
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The point of reference of most posters is based on the NF rules so we tend to default to the "3-foot space allowance" specified in the NF; however, jetmetfan has posted the relevant NCAA rule 9-4-2, which is a useful start to analyzying this sitch.

Last edited by Kansas Ref; Tue Jan 05, 2016 at 12:33pm.
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Old Tue Jan 05, 2016, 08:26pm
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See the NCAA court diagram which specifies that it is preferable to have 10 feet of unobstructed space but the minimum shall be 3 feet.

If there is less than 3 feet, I'd say that, in absence of anything else, 2-3 grants the referee the right to deal with the improper court to give the thrower the 3 feet indicated in the diagram.

Giving the thrower less than 2 feet and letting the defender also cross the line is just not a situation intended by any interpretation of the rules.
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Old Tue Jan 05, 2016, 11:41pm
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
See the NCAA court diagram which specifies that it is preferable to have 10 feet of unobstructed space but the minimum shall be 3 feet.

If there is less than 3 feet, I'd say that, in absence of anything else, 2-3 grants the referee the right to deal with the improper court to give the thrower the 3 feet indicated in the diagram.

Giving the thrower less than 2 feet and letting the defender also cross the line is just not a situation intended by any interpretation of the rules.
If I was in the mood to get laughed at and/or hung up on, I would ask Curtis if he thinks the officials should have used 2-3 to give OU 3 feet of room.
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