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-   -   Video Request: Block/Charge (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/100586-video-request-block-charge.html)

bballref3966 Thu Dec 31, 2015 09:31am
In NCAA mechanics does C or L get first crack on a drive from C to the hoop?

Raymond Thu Dec 31, 2015 09:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 974635)
12/30/15: Syracuse @ Pitt, ESPN2, call at 5.6 remaining first half.

I don't usually ask for B/C videos (there are no shortage of requests each season), but this one had me perplexed. Defender was outside the RA, so that's not the issue.

Saving my thoughts for later. Want to see how the discussion goes once the video is up.
That left elbow being extended outside his vertical space is the contact that I believe is the root of why the L calls this a block.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 974635)
Side discussions could include whether C got too excited about the secondary defender coming over and therefore missed an illegal screen on the primary defender as the drive began.
The C is absolutely great on this play. He puts his eyes on the screen and then switches his coverage to the ball-handler. Then he comes up a with a fist since the play is in his primary, but holds since it is a secondary defender play.

tnolan Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 974684)
I'm working this season on a principle that might well apply here. Your feedback on this is invited. I'm still in the middle of studying it.
And I'm not assessing the call made in this clip. I'm only bringing up for discussion the mechanic which, for many, can explain why so many officials seem always to default to a block on plays that are actually charges.
Note what the first, immediate, impulsive motion for the lead was on this call.
He starts immediately, with no pause or hesitation, going straight up with both arms. That locks him into one call and one call only, a block. His initial, impulsive motion is a precursor to this inevitable result.
Whereas, if the first impulse is, as is approved, a single fist in the air, then the signal, either block or charge, that gives the official just that little bit of a fraction of a second to digest what just happened so that a charge is at least given a chance to be called if warraned.
I'm not saying this is a universal thing for all, but it seems to be a valid observation as I've been studying video of block/charge calls on the high school and college level more this year.
Again, I'm not debating the call in the clip. Only the initial, seemingly impulsive start of the signal that might often lead to a default call which isn't always correct.
Am I on the right track with this? Or am I all wet?
I don't think you're too far off here at all. It seems to have elevated to that especially at the collegiate level, but I think based more on the rules and officials adapting to them. The NCAA changes in recent years regarding block/charge has made it extremely difficult for defenders to take charges which in turn makes it easy for officials to default right to the block call. I'm not arguing against rule changes or adoptions, just merely an observation.
Personally, I think at the NFHS level (for now), it's a little easier to determine the call. Referee the defense and think like the offense. And as you stated Freddy, getting that arm up for the correct mechanic gives you more time to digest that play.

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bob jenkins Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bballref3966 (Post 974693)
In NCAA mechanics does C or L get first crack on a drive from C to the hoop?
Since it was a secondary defender (despite what MTD says), L.

so cal lurker Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:44am
My usual disclaimer: I ref soccer, not hoops . . .

I disagree with where you go with this. There are three possible calls on the play, not two. Block, charge, or nothing. Your process seems to encourage the referee to blow the whistle and raise the arm before deciding which of the three. I think that's a bad idea -- and will result in more anticipation calls where the referee expects something that doesn't actually happen. (And from the comfort of my seat in the stands, I think that is something that differentiates experienced, quality officials from newbie/sloppy officials: the ability to actually wait rather than anticipate and call fouls that never happen.) IMHO, the referee should know what the call is before blowing the whistle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 974684)
I'm working this season on a principle that might well apply here. Your feedback on this is invited. I'm still in the middle of studying it.
And I'm not assessing the call made in this clip. I'm only bringing up for discussion the mechanic which, for many, can explain why so many officials seem always to default to a block on plays that are actually charges.
Note what the first, immediate, impulsive motion for the lead was on this call.
He starts immediately, with no pause or hesitation, going straight up with both arms. That locks him into one call and one call only, a block. His initial, impulsive motion is a precursor to this inevitable result.
Whereas, if the first impulse is, as is approved, a single fist in the air, then the signal, either block or charge, that gives the official just that little bit of a fraction of a second to digest what just happened so that a charge is at least given a chance to be called if warraned.
I'm not saying this is a universal thing for all, but it seems to be a valid observation as I've been studying video of block/charge calls on the high school and college level more this year.
Again, I'm not debating the call in the clip. Only the initial, seemingly impulsive start of the signal that might often lead to a default call which isn't always correct.
Am I on the right track with this? Or am I all wet?

Rich Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 974671)
1) I would have expected my first year students to get this call correct: CHARGE!!
You're like a broken record on these plays. Have you ever come on the forum and said a close play was a block?

I'm all for shipping 50/50 calls, but this is a block.

jpgc99 Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 974671)
1) I would have expected my first year students to get this call correct: CHARGE!!
I should have stopped reading at this incorrect statement. This play is a block, and correctly ruled a block by the official.

Further, the concept of a secondary defender is in the NCAA rulebook. See Rule 4, Section 35.

If you don't like the evolution of the game, that's fine, but your opinion isn't pertinent to a discussion of today's rules.

Camron Rust Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 974668)
Block....still moving in after the shooter left the floor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad (Post 974673)
Are you sure? Looks like he stops with both feet on the ground and then braces for impact. The bracing looks kinda goofy but I'm not calling it a block for just that aspect of the call.
Absolutely...once I saw the view from the endline and above.

The defender's shoulder was still moving into the path all the way to the point of contact. If the defender's body was frozen at the time of the shooter elevating, there may have been no contact at all.

While the defender's feet may have been down, his body wasn't yet in the path...thus LGP was not yet obtained. Getting the feet into the path isn't adequate.

#olderthanilook Thu Dec 31, 2015 01:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 974639)
I think L had defender still moving forward ad the offensive player left the ground.
This.

Dad Thu Dec 31, 2015 01:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 974752)
Absolutely...once I saw the view from the endline and above.

The defender's shoulder was still moving into the path all the way to the point of contact. If the defender's body was frozen at the time of the shooter elevating, there may have been no contact at all.

While the defender's feet may have been down, his body wasn't yet in the path...thus LGP was not yet obtained. Getting the feet into the path isn't adequate.
Well said, thanks for the reply.

Freddy Thu Dec 31, 2015 02:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 974729)
My usual disclaimer: I ref soccer, not hoops . . .

I disagree with where you go with this. There are three possible calls on the play, not two. Block, charge, or nothing. Your process seems to encourage the referee to blow the whistle and raise the arm before deciding which of the three. I think that's a bad idea -- and will result in more anticipation calls where the referee expects something that doesn't actually happen. (And from the comfort of my seat in the stands, I think that is something that differentiates experienced, quality officials from newbie/sloppy officials: the ability to actually wait rather than anticipate and call fouls that never happen.) IMHO, the referee should know what the call is before blowing the whistle.
No, I don't encourage the referee to blow the whistle and raise the arm before deciding which of the three... That goes against the principle of slow whistles from L, of which I'm an advocate. In fact, many of the times when the two arms begin to go up simultaneously, they're on quick whistles. This impulsive raising of both fists on a quick whistle is what locks officials into the default block on some plays that should have gone charge.
I'm advocating a slower whistle, in fact.
Your last sentence I also agree with. What I'm identifying is a habit that mitigates against that.

so cal lurker Thu Dec 31, 2015 03:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 974763)
No, I don't encourage the referee to blow the whistle and raise the arm before deciding which of the three... That goes against the principle of slow whistles from L, of which I'm an advocate. In fact, many of the times when the two arms begin to go up simultaneously, they're on quick whistles. This impulsive raising of both fists on a quick whistle is what locks officials into the default block on some plays that should have gone charge.
I'm advocating a slower whistle, in fact.
Your last sentence I also agree with. What I'm identifying is a habit that mitigates against that.

That makes no sense to me. What is "impulsive" about it if the referee has already decided it is a block? I don't think your proposed habit mitigates against anything -- it encourages decision making after the first signal, which is more likely to encourage an early whistle while still thinking than to encourage a slow whistle.

APG Thu Dec 31, 2015 03:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 974671)

2) I do not use the term "secondary defender" because there is no such thing as a "secondary defender" contrary to it being in the NCAA Men's and Women's Rules Books. The members of these two rules committees, may be very good basketball coaches but the addition of the term "secondary defender" and the "restricted area" to the rules show that they are completely lacking in the basic concepts of the Guarding Rule as it was conceived over fifty years ago.
There's no such thing as the RA or a secondary defender....even if it's defined in the rule book....right....Or maybe things change after 50 years....

This line of thinking helps no one working the college ranks.

MechanicGuy Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:57pm
One thing that might be worth discussing, his whether L should have rotated to the drive side.

It's one thing I've been focusing on myself this season, on plays like that, when I can tell where the screen is coming from....to get ball side.

In this play, he had a solid look because the defender tried to take a charge...but if there is a contested shot, I imagine the ideal look would be on the other side of the lane.

Rich Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:06pm
I'm someone who rotates more than most and there's just not enough time to get there.

I'd probably pinch the paint....the L in the video didn't and he seemed to have the look he wanted.


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