Which Ref Is Correct?
 

Which referee is correct here, and by which rule? Thanks.

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Looks like he got it right. Kudos to him for not changing his call. I have no idea what the lead is doing. BTW #4 earned her 6th foul as well.

Was an illegal screen called?

Peace

You would think so by what the trail is doing, walking back. The foul was on black 4 and her 5th. Lead was right to get involved because you couldn't tell what the trail called...he needed to give a strong push signal. Not good when you make a call and your the only guy in the gym who knows what it is....

Yes, the initial ref calls an illegal screen on White #11.

Looked like a good screen then. The player stood there and waited for the contact, at least from this angle.

Peace

Looking at it closer he has pointed at 4 black. He may have pointed the wrong way just as he called it. I think he had a push by 4 the entire time by looking at video. If you were there you have better info obviously.

It looks like he called it on 4. Her reaction seems to show that as well.

Agree. I think he called it on 4 and walked wrong way.

That is a better call, but he certainly did not do a good job telling everyone.

Peace

Agreed. Back to my original post. Anybody consider a technical for 4?

Unless there's some verbal (I watched it without sound), then there's nothing even close to a T as far as I can tell.

To the OP -- are you one of the officials on this game? This is three or four posts of video from what seems to be the same game.

No. Just trying to learn and absorb as much as possible from you guys.

Nope. She had a 2-second meltdown because she knew it was her fifth. Didn't seemed to be directed at anyone but herself. I'll give a little leeway for personal frustration. If she had persisted and/or directed her attention to an official....or said a magic word....then I have a different outcome. But by the video itself, I've got nothing.

Had a situation like this the other day. B1 runs up on A1 who had just recovered a loose ball along the endline. Bumped her marginally, but enough to cause A1 to step OOB, so....boop! B1 shouted something in frustration but it was brief and unintelligible. So I let it go. Until, when I was moving to report, she added some choice words that were just loud enough for me to hear, and very intelligible this time. Boop!

If you take a mile when I give you an inch, I will serve you my finest cup of tea.

This is not what you are seeing, if you are referring to her little jump and clap. At that instant she is celebrating because the ref just called the foul on white.

You can confirm this by watching the reaction of the the white team's coach. When he first hears the whistle he looks at the ref and cannot believe that the call was against his team.

Much later on after the ref meeting, Black 4 is informed it is her foul and fifth and she does not have any display at that point that I can see or hear.

Instead of posting these cryptic posts, would you please post what happened so we can make informed statements.

You know I thought that might be what happened, but went off of others' impressions that it was a negative reaction. That's what I get for being a lemming....:rolleyes:

here is what I see. Ref blows whistle and points wrong direction. 4 is happy, white coach unhappy. Ref points at 4 almost immediately. I think the call was on 4 the entire time. He just pointed wrong direction.

Yup. Happens.

Lead just came in to clarify.

The big fellow needs a lot more bounce in his step. Like to see a lot more effort...

Looks like an inexperienced official who doesn't communicate well. The L does a good job of stopping to make sure everything is going the right direction. Not sure where the T is going after he makes the call, though. He's in a hurry when he reports, and he's on his way towards black coach before they even get their hands at the table.

That is some rather nonchalant foul reporting

T initially calls it on white.

Points and reports foul on black.

Table is holding up for 5th foul

L is confused as to what's going on?

I would be confused if I were his partner.

That's what I'm seeing as well. The T's mechanics are nonexistent so given what he did (i.e., point the other way) it makes sense #4 Black was happy.

Frankly, I'd like to see what sort of rating the T received for the game. That play alone would've done him in as far as I'm concerned.

If I call that foul on B4 and she waves her arms at me like that then I'm probabaly whacking her. The key for me is whether she is looking at me or not. If yes, she is probably showing me up. If no, probably mad at herself. I am way more likely to give a coach a moment to react and calm down, players don't get as much rope.

What about that is cryptic? Seems like a decent analysis of the situation.

I usually don't post, just lurk around. I had to respond to this. What did 4 do that would even remotely deserve a T? She clapped when she thought the foul was on white. When it went against her, she walked off the floor. Why would you give a coach a moment to react and calm down, but not a player? A coach is an adult who should be setting an example for his team. A player is a kid who is involved physically and emotionally in the game. Not being critical, really curious on your reasoning.

Thinking the same thing. A tech never even went through my head when I saw the reaction.

Pretty sure his daughter is in this game...possibly #4.

As to the play, the Lead is getting hIs partner pointed back in the right direction, he is not over ruling him.

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Quit looking for T's, they'll come to you. Her reaction was celebratory as she thought the foul was on the offense.

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Are you assuming that because of the direction he went or did you hear him say White 11? The table almost immediately indicated 5 fouls on #4 so it leads me to believe they were told Black 4.

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Really, for that? You have a play where a foul could reasonably be called on either player and a spontaneous reaction clearly looks like she thinks the call is in her favor. And when the reaction is first over, she stops.

To me that is not very good GM if you give her a T and this is the only incident or situation she reacts. She would have to have done a lot more and clearly understand that the foul was not on her. But she seems to think the foul was in her favor.

Peace

See How I Did That ...
 

No technical foul. Not even for all the tea in China.

I was working a boys playoff game about 5-6 years ago. Still back when we worked 2-person in the first few rounds.

OT. Close game, still, about 90 seconds left. Packed gym. Great atmosphere.

Visiting defender tried to steal the ball, got the arm of the ball handler. I called a foul. The player, already moving in that direction, threw his arms up in the air and ran from the front court all the way to the other end of the floor with his arms in the air.

I called a technical foul for the reaction. 4 free throws later....

I still wonder if I should've given a bit more rope on that one, years later.

Back to this play: There's no way I'd even consider a technical foul here. I'm still confused what the official called myself.

I didn't say I would whack the girl in this exact situation. I said I would whack the girl if I called the foul on her, she knew it, and she clapped and waved her arms at me like that. I don't go looking for T's but I'm not afraid to take care of business when needed.

If a reaction is immediate and not prolonged, I have a really hard time giving anyone a T unless they have been reacting in a similar way multiple times. You can always talk to a player to tell them to knock it off if you think it is something that is directed at you. Players are always going to show some disappointment in a call or two during a game.

It has nothing to do with being afraid to take care of business, but if this is a T, you will be calling many of them over the course of your career that others will pass on. Just sayin....

Peace

I wouldn't call this taking care of business. More like taking care of a mess, which you'll have after you call a T.

This is like telling your wife you'll take out the trash. Tipping the trash upside down and spilling it all over the place. Then picking it all up and wanting to claim credit.

I look for multiple reactions. Depending on how bad the first one is, after the first 1-2 reactions I'll tell the coach to stop it before I do. After that I've rarely ever had an issue. Even if I throw a T later for more reactions I've never had a coach surprised at my call or do anything goofy to deserve a T.

Again, I DID NOT SAY I WOULD WHACK IN THIS SITUATION. I changed the parameters of the situation and said I would PROBABLY whack in MY SPECIFIC SITUATION. Everyone clear?

While I think that the trail got the play wrong, it appears to be a JV game and these officials should be on this site. There was enough time and distance for the defender to avoid contact but she decided to plow through the legal screen. Despite getting the play wrong, it needed a whistle and good job by the trail for saying with what he had to avoid a double foul.

With that said this is a mess. The ball in in bounded to the back court. There should have been a back court count, unless this is one of the states where they use NCAA rules for a high school game. Secondly the body language needs to be addressed. The lead, who had no business looking where at this play hits his whistle three times, seems to upstage the trail. Its just bad and if he had a different opinion they should have talked about it AWAY FROM THE COACHES. In addition there was no signal from anyone. Add to that that this player fouled out the officals need to look at the rule book for how to handle a player who fouls out. Inform the coach and then the player in that order. If you can have a non-calling official do this so that things don't get out of had with the coach especially if there is any doubt that the play was called correctly. The C should do that in this case because he is the only one that did not have any input on the play. Finally I cannot stress enough, have the conversation away from table staff, players, and coaches. These people are not your friends and this could cause an excited coach to cause him/herself to earn a T. Stay out of that situation.

Edit (forgot) if the lead has something different, why the heck he was looking there I cannot say, there would have to be a double foul because the foul was already reported to the table. This is another reason to officiate your primary. I would not want to have to explain this to a supervisor when he/she asked who was refereeing my primary (assuming I was the lead)

If you think these officials should be on the site, then most of these points are moot. Trail is new and not going to have strong mechanics. T handled the play well and cleared it up.

I'd explain this to a supervisor with zero problems. Everyone was confused and he wanted to make sure everyone was on the same page. You have no idea where he was looking and to top it off watching your primary doesn't mean your blind to everything else in the gym.

Moot.

(Twice in one week.) :D

:(
Thanks

While it does not mean that you are blind to the rest of the gym I would have a hard time going that far out of my area to reach for a call. To make that call I would have to be 100% sure or more.

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I really don't think he was reaching for a call. The table was holding up for what looks like 5 fouls before the lead even comes in. Looks like the call stood to me and it was just the initial reaction by the coach, player, and mechanics of the trail which caused the lead to come over.

I don't have a problem with what the Lead did. If I had a partner who was so lax with his signal at the spot of the foul, his reporting, and what happened afterwards, I would want some clarification as well.

I was going to mention getting in the backcourt and counting as well, but I figured everyone else would see that stuff on their own.

I thought he was very lazy to get into position. A quick steal would have really put him out of position and he would have had to possibly make a long distance call. He was not officiating the current play, but officiating what he hoped would be the next play IMO. And might have been the reason he was not giving the right signals.

Peace

I think he was being sarcastic.

Are you talking about the Lead? I'm pretty sure all he did was clarify the T's call since there was so much confusion. Judging by the rest of the action (offensive coach's reactions, table holding up 5 as soon as he does his walk-by report) in the video, T called the defender for the foul from the start. No one knew but him right away because he pointed the wrong way.

I'm guessing he's a relatively new official. This is clearly summer or fall ball judging by the team waiting behind the bench with the bleachers pushed in. The L was likely the veteran official here.

We've all been there with a newer partner who just doesn't have good mechanics yet. The guy made the right call, he just got the mechanics wrong.

What is moot? :confused:

I certain person on this topic said, "mute" when meaning "moot." They have since changed their reasonable mistake.

Peace

I was assuming this was a jv game and that is the varsity team getting ready

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I concur. Plus there are other officials standing by behind the visiting bench.

But ... 3-man for JV girls? I'm impressed. What state is this?

I agree. But what better way to learn the system

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No doubt. I think it's terrific, and great that the schools have it in their budgets to extend that down to lower levels.

It appears this is Arvin (Calif.) High School. So props to the Golden State!

I'm always a little shocked there are states that don't 3-man the majority of JV games.

Shocked ...
 

https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.M63...=0&w=300&h=300

Here in the Constitution State, I have never officiated, observed, or heard about a three person junior varsity game. I've officiated one three person game in my thirty-five year career. Here in my little corner of the state, 99% of our regular season varsity games are two person, and only one league will request three officials for it's league finals, and that's not a given every year for both genders. State tournament games are not three person until the quarterfinal round.

Why? Maybe it's about money, or lack of training, or the number of officials needed on a nightly basis, but it's mainly due to the fact that the most powerful coaches in the state coaches association are fearful that more fouls will be called, they don't want three officials, and the state high school interscholastic sports governing body does what the coaches lobby wants.

1. The bleachers are nearly always pulled out for varsity games, well before time. I've literally never seen a varsity game with one half of the gym closed off for spectators like this. It's an off season set up.

2. Varsity officials never stand behind the benches in the moments before their game starts. Again, that screams off-season ball to me.

3. Unrelated because of #1 and #2, but we do 3 for large school JV in my area.

Maybe I've grown too used to 3-man JV/V. Wonder if I'm in trouble if I ever move and have to acclimate to a new association.

The Provisions State ...
 

Just don't move to Connecticut.

I'd probably retire if I had to go back to 2-person. I've had a good run.

We are doing 3 person for the first time at the high school level in Oregon this season on a limited basis.

It requires opt-in from both the officials association and the school league/conference. In our area we have two conferences that have opted in at the varsity level only for this season.

The allowing of schools and leagues to opt in has made the transition to 3 take much longer than necessary here.

What it did for me the last 8-10 years was make me have to bounce back from 2 to 3 to 2 from night to night. This year I'll work no 2-person games.

I'm simply not as good or consistent in either system when I have to alternate. Others will claim it's no big deal....and I don't believe them.

Speed it up!

If I ever moved it'd probably be back to Oregon.

so was the foul on Team B? for crashing thru the screen?

It is simply a cost issue for the schools or conferences. Not saying that is a good reason, but you might not find many officials qualified to work those games and you will not have schools willing to pay an extra check a game for a lower level game.

Peace

Maybe I should be more appreciative of the assigner. I don't know how much say he has, but I know he fights for 3-man on basically everything he assigns.

Well in my experience in this area, the assignor can fight all they want, but it does not change the school and their budgetary situations. If they do not want to pay and extra $40 to $50 per game it is not going to happen. And depending on how many games, that could go into the hundreds of extra money for the school to pay out. And I can tell you schools in Illinois often are not being funded as the state says they are supposed to be (do not get me started) because the budget is not resolved. Those few extra hundred dollars makes a difference.

Peace

Yes.

And don't move to Arizaona

:confused:

See BillyMac's post on previous page.

Is the crew in that video a varsity crew officiating a varsity game? At first, the answer seems obvious - yes. But, after watching the Trail officials (lack of) mechanics...oh boy...:eek:

I think it's clear that this is not a varsity game, at least not one played during the high school season.

The bleachers are pulled in behind the benches. The teams for the next game seem to be waiting behind the benches. The officials for the next game are waiting behind the table, leaning against the packed-in bleachers.

To me, this is clearly off season ball.

Where slackers go to get the rust off. Scrims!

Slackers? :)

Not sure it's a scrimmage, though. Most scrimmages don't keep track of player fouls; at least in my area.

I'd like to see more younger officials offer to split 2 checks at the JV level. Those that want to become varsity officials need to work games 3-person and a camp or two in the summer just doesn't cut it.

However, this is why so many officials, even those that work varsity, are simply terrible at 3-person.

Yeah that's true here also, but usually the total new guys get their feet wet during scrims.

Varsity group around here is really old. If they aren't doing any other sports scrims are there first game in over half a year. Upside is every year seems like 5 years experience working with retired college officials. Downside is I always go, "YES! I'm not the R1" J/K they make me do it.

huh. My son is playing JV in So Cal, and we've never seen three refs. (League hasn't started, but I'm pretty sure from the game we went to last year that even their league games are 2 man (Mission League, for anyone who knows SoCal).

Preseason scrimmages and off season leagues are often used to train officials. I'm guessing this was a varsity level game played in the off season. The T in this play was in a bit over his head judging by his mechanics, which tend to be the first thing to go when an official is nervous or panicked.

He may be a solid JV official ready to start the process of moving up, or he may have simply had a brain cramp, or he may have just been dialing in the summer stuff and not really cared much about communication. My guess is the first option.