Two Entire Rosters Suspended
 

Two entire Pa. basketball rosters suspended after bench-clearing brawl

https://www.instagram.com/p/_nDQABQ5NK/

The incident itself is not amusing at all. However, I noted two things that made me chuckle.

1. One of the coaches said afterwards, "It seems that since all of the players from both benches left the bench to come over and help their teammates out, they are all thrown out from the game." He almost sounded surprised by this ruling, proving once again that coaches don't know the rules.

2. I thought it was funny how the lead in the video came in with the most feeble attempt at a technical signal I've ever seen. In his defense, I think he realized before he even finished the motion just how futile a technical was going to be here; it rapidly became the least of his concerns. :eek:

They are fighting and the L backs up like he's watching the play like any other post play. Casually backs up for a better view.

Wonder how many officials are jumping in there like one of these officials.

I'll try to prevent a fight, but I won't try to break one up. Once players come off the bench, I have other, more-pressing duties.

I'll jump in if no punches have been thrown. Once punches are thrown, or non-players enter the court, I'm backing away and observing.

What I would probably do. On the bright side the officials got to go home early :p

We're instructed to do two things in the event of a fight:

1. Motion the coaching staff(s) onto the floor to break it up
2. Monitor the nearest bench to see which players come onto the floor

We are definitely not instructed to advance toward the scrum or try and break it up.

"The fight occurred when a whistle led to a skirmish"... really? the WHISTLE lead to the skirmish? Seems to me the foul led to the skirmish...

Head coaches can come on the floor. Pretty awkward having the rest of the staff come onto the floor and then assess them the technical fouls that they get, by rule.

In this case, once it becomes a group incident, instead of a couple players, I'm standing back watching the action and calling for the head coaches to come on the floor. along with security if it is present.

I am not trying to break up a group fight. The last thing I (or 99.9% of us) need is to become injured in a fight. I will stand back, take names and numbers, and deal with it as it needs to be dealt with.


Also, the idea that the officials "at least got to go home early" is likely very untrue.

In Michigan, if we have a fight like this, the officials are required to file an officials report. There is one officials report per ejection, plus reports of concern filed in this case because of non-game participants also being involved (people from the stands). As a crew, we need to have all the information straight as to who saw what before we file those reports. I suspect that Pennsylvania is similar. Not to mention, a situation like this normally also gets the legal authorities involved which means interviews with the police for the officials as well. It makes for a very long day/night.

Thankfully I never had a brawl during an HS event I officiated. I did however have one during college IM Flag football. The QB, after throwing a long TD pass, sprinted down the field and WWE dropped kicked a guy standing in the endzone. The police ended up coming in to break it up. I ended up having to testify in court about the incident because they charged the QB with several crimes (including pot possession, he had it in his shorts during the game).

Here's a thought: in a "rivalry" game...BLOW THE WHISTLE!

If the preceding game action was officiated with the same "slow" whistle that this jump ball situation was, it's no wonder the game ended like it did. This game didn't "erupt" into chaos suddenly...the fuse was already lit and had been "smoldering" for a while.

To be brutally honest: Your two cents is not worth a wooden nickel.

MTD, Sr.

You came out of your hiding three months early, fanboy.
You can take your two cents with you and hit the road.

And I will never, ever grab a player to try and break up a fight. If I can get between two players I will, but once the melee starts I'm simply observing.

This page has a slightly longer version of the video.

http://www.timesonline.com/sports/hi...d4ac9e6c6.html

Taken it a vacuum it appears there wasn't anything out of the ordinary as far as the officials were concerned. There was a rebound. B#14 and W#11 battled for it. A held ball was called (correctly, IMO). W#11 shoved B#14. The L gave a T to W#11...then all heck broke loose.

Sub varsity game:Very often there is only one coach and he left the other immature minors to run on the court... likely they will follow him - unfortunately.
So to "stir the pot"
Do we really need the coach on the floor for a fight?
I was at the NASO conference in STL this summer and during a presentation, an attorney said: Good officials Don't let athletes fight during their game"... He goes on to say: Don't think you won't be sued if a kid gets hurt during that fight and there's video footage of you standing there watching.
His illustration was NBA officals: Arguably the best officials in our game.
His question: Do you ever see NBA Officials backing away from a fight?
Answer: Hell no! They are dealing with the strongest basketball players in the world and they stop the fight - always!

This was a varsity game.

I'd be interested to know which team the coach in the gray shirt and tie belonged too. He seemed to want to blame the lead official for what happened by standing there pointing at him and running his mouth as things were being restored to some semblance of order.

Close. You won't see Violet or Laura getting in there -- they have instructed not to.

You're just as likely to get sued for grabbing a 16 y/o kid and pulling him away from a fight.

You're just as likely to get sued for grabbing a 16 y/o kid and leaving him exposed to a punch from the opponent.

Once the punches start getting thrown, nothing you do is going to be sue-proof, so take down numbers and stay out of the way. Keep blowing your whistle, use your voice, but I would be very wary of getting into the fray to break it up once it's started.

I agree completely.

Rule number one: NEVER put your hands on a player.

If I can get between them before they start swinging I will, but once the punches start, no way. As Adam said, use your whistle and voice.

And if I'm the away official I'm not going to go running into the fray, but will go near the table and instruct the scorer to write down the color/number of every player I see leave the bench and enter the court as I verbally recite them.

I try to imagine watching video footage of myself standing back and observing a fight, during a game under my jurisdiction... Lets say one kid is getting stomped, jumped by multiple offenders/beaten up seriously... Will observing a violent act and doing nothing, really keep our names off the lawsuit?
When the kid shows up to court severely injured, will the judge/ jury let me off the hook - because I didn't want to get hurt or was concerned about a lawsuit?

I willing to bet that the same litigious jerk that would sue you for pulling the kid away, will sue you if that same kid got hurt in the fight.
Notice the coach: pointing and seemingly blaming.
Go ahead and say to the suit happy lawyer and parent: "not it'. I'm betting, "You're it" - like it or not!

You might want to rethink what your scope of practice is as an official.

We are employed as game officials, not as trained police officers, security guards or bouncers, and acting as such would more likely open an official up to liability for acting outside their scope of practice. Just like we never render aid to a possibly injured player - that's the coach's and trainer's responsibility.

Maintaining order in the facility and providing adequate security is the responsibility of game management - even more so when fans get involved. The head coaches are responsible for their players, and the gym supervisor and security/police for everyone else.

Laura?

The suit may be equally likely either way (I'm not convinced, but I'm willing to concede that point for discussion.)

But it seems to me, from the perspective of a father who is not an actual lawyer, that the likelihood of a successful suit would be much higher if I put my hands on a kid as opposed to doing everything verbally and audibly to stop a fight.

Again, there's no way in hell I'm putting my hands on a kid to physically move him or her in this situation.

I think he meant Lauren Holtkamp.

Where is this written: "never touch a player"? Have there been lawsuits resulting from officials breaking up fights?
BTW: I do like whistles and yelling at players. I say, blow the whistle till their all deaf.
But... standing back and doing nothing like the L official in the video?

Yep. Lauren.

I don't think he was "doing nothing." I think he was observing what was happening and taking down numbers. C was doing the exact same thing on the other side of things.

Are we not the police of the game on the court w/ our number one job being: Player Safety?
I didn't say police the entire gym: just the safety of the players on the floor which is where I have jurisdiction.
When safety is number one; how do we justify ourselves by doing nothing?
Our high school rule book says: safety, fair play and sportsmanship is the reason we are there!

Where have there been lawsuits for not breaking up fights? As others have mentioned, 95% of us have never been trained in breaking up fights. You grab a player's arms and restrain him, then his opponent spots an opportunity. You grab a player's shoulder and accidentally grab her chest. You grab a player and pull him away from a fight and he trips and falls backwards, hitting his head on the floor.

Before you say these are all unlikely and you've never seen them; it's probably because the vast majority (an understatement) of officials do not get physically involved in a fight. And as unlikely as my scenarios are, they are more likely than some pissed off dad deciding to sue the officials for not stopping a fight combined with a lawyer willing to take the case on contingency combined with a judge/jury willing to find in favor of the plaintiff.

I'm keeping my hands off and advising others do the same. You do what you think is best.

Everyone has to do whatever they're most comfortable doing.
The T is old school - he's obviously got training or just instincts that say: "No way and not today".
The advice of "never touch a player" is not always appropriate. If I see a kid stomping a defenseless kids' head MMA Pride style - I defending the helpless. A kid gets his head rammed into that wall and goes down... go ahead an back away if you dare?
"Never touch a player" is an overstatement.
"Extreme caution and in rare instances"; is maybe more appropriate?

the day you see a kid stomping the head of another "MMA Pride style" I'll recommend you go ahead and step in.

If a kid pulls out a gun on the court and I have a chance to stop him, I'll go ahead and tackle him. But I'm not going to use the sasquatch play as a basis of advice for fights that occur far more regularly.

My thoughts exactly: A little caution is necessary when using words like never and always.

That attorney's a ****ing idiot. They can sue all they want--it isn't going anywhere. Now, if a kid gets hurt because you try to break up a fight and either injure him or contribute to another injuring him...those would hold more water.

I could call Alan Goldberger a lot of things, but an ****ing idiot would be near the bottom of that list. He's the preeminent attorney when it comes to sports officiating matters and he knows what he's talking about.

Not in this case (no pun intended.)

What's your area of expertise that would trump his?

(I'm asking this seriously. You could be a top notch attorney and I simply wouldn't know.)

Lawsuit doesn't have to amount to anything, but it still cost to defend yourself.
Had there been an injury and that video was submitted as evidence... That Lead has some explaining to do.

Wouldn't cost me anything but time and a phone call -- it's why I have been an NASO member for a long time.

Does your state association provide training, certification and guidelines on how to physically break up a fight on the court? If not, then it is not in your scope of practice as an official.

I never said "do nothing", what I said is I agree with Adam that once the punches start we do not get physically involved - we use our whistle and voice to try to control it as much as we can.

Maybe you should read your books.

NFHS 2015-2017 Basketball Officials Manual

page 11

1.4.3.C. Should a fight occur, use your voice and whistle to gain the attention of players.

1.4.3.D. Do not touch, hold or grab players - both for your own safety and for liability concerns.

1.4.3.E. One official should remain away from the action and observe non-participating players and bench personel.

Clear enough?

No, he doesn't. He's not a cop, he's not security. Not his job nor is it assumed that he would have competence in physically ending a brawl. Hell, that WAS my real job (along with others in our association) and we were told that we were not to act any differently from any other official in brawl situations (not that we had to be told, because we know better.)

That's a good defense in court:
"my state doesn't provide training, and I don't know why the kid didn't respond to my whistle or voice".
Q. What training did your state give you in dealing with a fight?

I'm 99.9% never going to get involved in a fight. Could there be a situation? Say on a fastbreak, 8 players go. Maybe one or two trip and are on the ground and you as a trail are staying back to make sure it clears up. They start fighting and one is hurting the other. Maybe then you step in to stop it. Say other players and coaches are watching the ball and no one but you can stop the actions so that could be a situation when I would step in but even then I'm not sure. It would be stupid for refs to get involved in fights. Coaches and players should be the ones breaking it up.

A. None.

Seems like every school official in the building and even some parents are trying to break up this fight.
Is the trail official doing anything wrong?

We are trained to follow NFHS protocol and guidelines - see my post above (#40)

NFHS 2015-2017 Basketball Officials Manual

page 11

1.4.3.C. Should a fight occur, use your voice and whistle to gain the attention of players.

1.4.3.D. Do not touch, hold or grab players - both for your own safety and for liability concerns.

1.4.3.E. One official should remain away from the action and observe non-participating players and bench personel.

Clear enough?

Given this guidance, one would be opening himself up to a lawsuit if he or she were to ignore the guidance and start playing a role for which he or she is not trained. If your day job is a cop, by all means, feel free to step in (with deference to your department's guidelines). But if you're a banker or a lawyer or a teacher, I recommend you stick to the NFHS guidelines.

Serious question: Do you have any idea what you're talking about or just saying whatever comes to mind?

There is infinitely more that can go wrong in most situations if you get involved than if you just watch. You can claim random events about people having to go to court to defend themselves because they only observed. This just isn't true. You can't compare NBA events to HS events when money amounts change litigation procedures.

If a player gets injured at the HS level they will be going after the assaulter or the school. Why would they ever care to waste there time going after an official? Especially since I'm hoping most officials pick up there phone and then are done.

Telling officials to observe instead of break up fights is substantially better advice at the high school level.

I've tried to parse these sentences 5-6 times and have no idea what you're trying to say.

It honestly seemed pretty clear to me. Whether you agree with his statements or not, I'm not sure which part is unclear.

Paraphrased:
If a player in a high school game is injured in a fight and his parents decide to sue, they're going to go after the school or the person who actually assaulted the kid. there's no point in wasting time going after the official, especially when most of them will simply need to make a phone call to NASO or their state association for legal representation.

RefHoop:

Was the lawyer Alan Goldberger by any chance?

MTD, Sr.

Thanks for translating that into English. The logic is still horrible, but at least I now understand what he was trying to say.

I actually agree with the logic, although it doesn't make one immune to the possibility of a lawsuit

Having means (i.e. NASO insurance) makes you more likely to be named in a lawsuit, not less. Plaintiffs and their lawyers go after cash - from anyone that MIGHT be liable. They don't care if you, State Farm, NASO, or someone else has to pay. Whether or not the litigation impacts your life is another matter altogether.

Nice. This principle made its way up from the last page of the officials manual to page 11 this year.

Yup!

My state has said that we are not to get involved in breaking up a fracas.

That's all the guidance I care about.

[QUOTE=Dad;974259]Serious question: Do you have any idea what you're talking about or just saying whatever comes to mind?

Yes, putting someone's name on a lawsuit is not too big deal, particularly if the kid is injured bad enough...

https://cdn.streamable.com/video/75a...dd987e691a.mp4

Imagine this being your kid.

https://youtu.be/iBXzVvOxzDk

What's your point? I would never be working my kids' games, and if I was a fan I certainly wouldn't be suing the officials for not getting involved.

My point was more about the mayhem and that kid needing help.
The first video shows an official grabbing a female.
The second video shows a high school official seeing the need to intervene.
I'm 100% in favor of not grabbing kids, but I just wouldn't say we should never do whats necessary or that we only face liability for getting involved...
I stand by my original position: the L in the original posted video is doing very little... no whistle, no voice and no involvement.
A hands-off approach may save us from physical harm, but it won't create a safer situation for the kids and it doesn't necessarily mitigate liability.
Good discussing men - I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

[QUOTE=Refhoop;974275]
Why are the girls in this video even allowed on the court with those illegal headbands??

It Escalates From There ...
 

This is what happens when officials chose to ignore rules. The players think that if they can get away with headbands with extensions, then they can get away with anything, including a rock 'em sock 'em fight. Allowing headbands with extensions is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Location: A packed courtroom on a hot and humid afternoon. Ceiling fans circle overhead, squeaking as they turn, but the courtroom is still uncomfortably hot.
Attorney (approaching the judge): Your honor, I would like to submit this headband with extensions as exhibit A.
Attorney (turning to the defendant) : Sir, did you observe that the players were wearing headbands with extensions as they were warming up for the game?
Official (a bead of sweat dripping down his cheek): I'm taking the fifth amendment and refuse to answer on the ground it may tend to incriminate me.

And ... scene.

[QUOTE=Whistles & Stripes;974297]Maybe because this game was played when the headband rule was different?

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

I know Allan, and I do not believe that he would make such a statement.

MTD, Sr.

Perhaps, but having that representation makes it more likely that such a suit will get thrown out early on due to the legal expertise.

And your final sentence is my point.

I don't watch much NBA, so perhaps someone could confirm for me whether they actually get physically involved once punches are actually thrown.

Note, it doesn't change my mind on what we should do at the high school level because of all the issues already mentioned.

https://youtu.be/wIyV4Zufynw is a youtube compilation of fights.

I'm not making it up - I attended two of his sessions... but by all means ask him and confirm.

To never grab a player fighting is a conundrum for me and an axiom for seemingly most on this forum... which I respect.
BTW: When I get a elementary school fight, I just hold them upside down till the calm down... that always works.

I was actually in the room. BTW, I'd highly recommend the NASO Summit for those who haven't been to one.

I won't speak for Alan, but I'll say what I took away from the talk.

So many officials simply say that they'll do nothing in those situations but back up and take numbers -- I think he's saying that attempting within reason to break up a fight or physically preventing one when starting is not the legal bogeyman that everyone is making it out to be.

I doubt anyone is saying never and if they are it's the minority.

It's just good advice to observe fights instead of getting involved. This isn't an all encompassing stance and with good judgement there is the rare case where getting involved is the best decision.

NBA officials will do all they can to stop altercations...including using physical force. They also have the luxury of replay to penalize any and all things that need to be penalized.

Very true. They are also all adults and both players and officials are operating within a wholly controlled commercial contractural environment.

You can't compare the NBA with interscholastic sports - the disparaties are numerous and major. They are very different animals.....

It's an axiom, sure, but axiom's aren't absolutes. The exceptions, for most of us, to an aversion to the use of physical force to break up a fight between students are situations none of us will likely ever actually see.

Exactly. NBA officials are full time employees whose compensation and legal protections are entirely different than those of us working at the HS level.

As for the video itself I don't have any criticism of the officials on the court. The one thing I would say is that I like to step toward the jump ball and be a bit more aggressive with the whistle in those situations hopefully to act as a deterrent to such non-sense but there's no guarantee that works. The L called the jump ball, quickly called a T when the initial push occurred, then backed up once mayhem ensued.

On the point of never touching players I was just thinking about that last week. I had a jump ball situation with players on the floor and some mild jawing. One player kind of took a step toward an opponent and I put my arm out and sort of pushed him back as I also verbalized to "knock it off" or something to that effect. It came to me as 2nd nature probably from having a background of previous working directly with kids through running recreation leagues, coaching, teaching HS for a few years, etc. But afterwards I was questioning whether or not I should have done that.

one thought after watching the vid of the girls fight: if you ARE going to get in between players, I suggest taking the whistle out of your mouth...as a stray elbow hitting your whistle could mess up your teeth (more than just a regular stray elbow to the chops , that is)

NASO Conference: Excellent - planning to attend again this summer!
San Antonio, TX
July 31 – August 2, 2016

Alan's words: "Good officials don't let players fight" could have been the opening line for a day long Socratic seminar, involving officials, attorneys and rules committees from: NFHS, NCAA, FIBA and NBA.