I also cannot think straight

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by deecee

Before you try and get into a match of wits I'll spell it out for you since your rule book is probably misplaced

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when teh ball touches a player's own backboard.

1-15-3: The dribble begins by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

Now, stay with me, because it may go over your head. How can a player with control go to make a pass (an intentional act) then intentionally change his mind, and you call that a FUMBLE?????

A fumble is when a player goes to pick up his dribble cut FUMBLES gathering the ball. You can't have control of the ball with both hands go to pass, change your mind and then suddenly FUMBLE. It's throwing the ball to the floor and the start of a dribble.

Let's assume that somebody doesn't call this a double dribble, which I agree it is. Could the "secondary" call (if you miss the double dribble) be a travel? You essentially ended up passing to yourself after you lost your dribble. I think that is the call that the crowd, coaches, and players would understand and not argue with.

[ODog]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

Let's assume that somebody doesn't call this a double dribble, which I agree it is. Could the "secondary" call (if you miss the double dribble) be a travel? You essentially ended up passing to yourself after you lost your dribble. I think that is the call that the crowd, coaches, and players would understand and not argue with.

SD, I know you said you're a state tournament official in the thread where you said you have somehow never given a technical foul to a coach (in a career that spans 10+ years, I believe) ... and now you say THIS?!

Are you pulling our leg or are you really pretending to be a legitimate official?

"Passing to yourself" = not possible; "fanboy" talk, as others on here would say
"The call that the crowd, coaches, players would understand and not argue with" = since when has that EVER mattered?! Nothing matters less, in fact.

These are some troubling theories, whether you're just starting out or do in fact have the experience, errr, years you claim to possess.

[Nevadaref]

I thought of another example for deecee's officiating philosophy.

A1 attempts bank shot. B1 jumps, takes a swing at the ball, but misses and strikes the backboard.

Applying deecee's philosophy this is bad defense and should result in a technical foul because the player smacked the backboard. The rest of us would use our judgment to discern if the player made a legitimate attempt to block the shot as the NFHS rules and case plays say.

I believe that this situation provides another clear example of how basketball officiating requires making judgments of the players' actions and cannot be done by defaulting to some philosophy of good & bad offense or defense.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I believe that this situation provides another clear example of how basketball officiating requires making judgments of the players' actions and cannot be done by defaulting to some philosophy of good & bad offense or defense.

Agreed. Another example of someone hearing a camp-cliche and applying it where it doesn't belong.

It's not unlike putting apples in the orange juice.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Adam

Agreed. Another example of someone hearing a camp-cliche and applying it where it doesn't belong.

It's not unlike putting apples in the orange juice.

What's wrong with smoothies??

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by ODog

SD, I know you said you're a state tournament official in the thread where you said you have somehow never given a technical foul to a coach (in a career that spans 10+ years, I believe) ... and now you say THIS?!

Are you pulling our leg or are you really pretending to be a legitimate official?

"Passing to yourself" = not possible; "fanboy" talk, as others on here would say
"The call that the crowd, coaches, players would understand and not argue with" = since when has that EVER mattered?! Nothing matters less, in fact.

These are some troubling theories, whether you're just starting out or do in fact have the experience, errr, years you claim to possess.

Well I wasn't there to see EXACTLY how it happened and am trying to go off a typed description.

If somebody dribbles, then picks it up, fumbles it and then retrieves it. The whole place is going to yell "TRAVEL!!!!!!" I wouldn't argue with somebody that calls the travel.

You know that a large percentage of players are going to try to retrieve the ball by batting down at, giving the appearance of a dribble. The question then becomes by batting down at it, making contact, and getting the ball to bounce up, does that constitute double dribble? I don't think you can have anything other than a violation in this example.

I don't care what anybody other than me and my partners think, but a travel seems like a logical call and a call that the crowd, players, and coaches will buy. I don't think either coach or any of the players would argue it if it happens like it is happening in my mind.

Thank you for the condescending post regarding my knowledge and experience. I know some guys on here think they are god's gift to officiating and love to talk to down to other posters. Are you in that category? Like I said above, it's hard to picture what happened without being there. If somebody calls it a travel or double dribble, I have no problem with that and I would probably call one of them too. Whether you care about what anybody else in the arena thinks doesn't matter, but you have to admit that a travel call probably keeps the place quiet and isn't a necessarily wrong call. I know you can fumble, dribble, fumble. You cannot dribble, fumble, dribble. Without seeing the actual action, it's hard to say what the correct call was or is.

I also didn't realize that NOT giving a T to a coach in 10 years, would set me up to be a target on here. Is it really that tough to believe. Do the rest of you have big egos and thin skins or do I have a thick skin or do I have the respect of the coaches? I guess we will never know and I will continue to not give out a T until it is warranted. Thank you for your concern with my reffing career.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

Well I wasn't there...

You can't call a fumble a travel. My argument was to the validity of an intended action and then changing your mind on what you wanted to do and therefore having an unintended consequence. Visa-vie a fumble on what was going to be a pass that then wasn't.

In your case a clear fumble CANNOT be a travel, on any planet.

Also not having a T in 10 years is a big red flag to me. I don't see how one can go 10 games without a T.

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by deecee

You can't call a fumble a travel. My argument was to the validity of an intended action and then changing your mind on what you wanted to do and therefore having an unintended consequence. Visa-vie a fumble on what was going to be a pass that then wasn't.

In your case a clear fumble CANNOT be a travel, on any planet.

Also not having a T in 10 years is a big red flag to me. I don't see how one can go 10 games without a T.

I'm not trying to be adversarial, but you seem to be. I'm looking for good discussion and help to become better. Why is it so hard to accept that I haven't given a T to a coach? I have given to players, but not coaches. I guess I just have thicker skin than most. It must not be too big of a red flag in my state.

I'm not going to make any sort of call on this as I wasn't there and have no idea how it really went down. I don't think any of us can give a 100% accurate answer.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

I'm not trying to be adversarial, but you seem to be. I'm looking for good discussion and help to become better. Why is it so hard to accept that I haven't given a T to a coach? I have given to players, but not coaches. I guess I just have thicker skin than most. It must not be too big of a red flag in my state.

I'm not going to make any sort of call on this as I wasn't there and have no idea how it really went down. I don't think any of us can give a 100% accurate answer.

I have no opinion on the number of T's you've given, but it has nothing to do with thick skin as compared to others.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

If somebody dribbles, then picks it up, fumbles it and then retrieves it. The whole place is going to yell "TRAVEL!!!!!!" I wouldn't argue with somebody that calls the travel.

Why not? How, under NFHS rules could this possibly be a travel? I just don't see any theoretical basis under which it could be a travel.

You know that a large percentage of players are going to try to retrieve the ball by batting down at, giving the appearance of a dribble. The question then becomes by batting down at it, making contact, and getting the ball to bounce up, does that constitute double dribble?

That's why you get the big bucks, right? To decide if it was a controlled bat that constituted a dribble? DD is certainly a possibility if either (1) the referee determines it was not a fumble, or (2) if the player does something the referee considers a dribble while collecting the ball.

I don't care what anybody other than me and my partners think, but a travel seems like a logical call and a call that the crowd, players, and coaches will buy. I don't think either coach or any of the players would argue it if it happens like it is happening in my mind. . . . Whether you care about what anybody else in the arena thinks doesn't matter, but you have to admit that a travel call probably keeps the place quiet and isn't a necessarily wrong call.

Still don't see how it is not necessarily a wrong call. What did the player do that could possibly be a travel?

I also didn't realize that NOT giving a T to a coach in 10 years, would set me up to be a target on here. Is it really that tough to believe.

Darn straight its hard to believe. You must have shockingly well behaved coaches or be stunningly lucky to not have a situation in 10 years where a T was clearly warranted. Possible, but really, really hard for many of us to believe based on experience.

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

Why not? How, under NFHS rules could this possibly be a travel? I just don't see any theoretical basis under which it could be a travel.That's why you get the big bucks, right? To decide if it was a controlled bat that constituted a dribble? DD is certainly a possibility if either (1) the referee determines it was not a fumble, or (2) if the player does something the referee considers a dribble while collecting the ball.Still don't see how it is not necessarily a wrong call. What did the player do that could possibly be a travel?
Darn straight its hard to believe. You must have shockingly well behaved coaches or be stunningly lucky to not have a situation in 10 years where a T was clearly warranted. Possible, but really, really hard for many of us to believe based on experience.

I would suggest that many of you grow a thicker skin. Or maybe we just have better behaved coaches in my area?

I guess maybe I need to start handing out T's in order to be accepted?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

I would suggest that many of you grow a thicker skin. Or maybe we just have better behaved coaches in my area?

I guess maybe I need to start handing out T's in order to be accepted?

It's possible that you've had ten years of well behaved coaches who heeded your warnings.

It's possible you just take whatever abuse they want to give you and consider an honor to have thick skin.

Chances are, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Some are afraid to hand out deserved Ts, and others are too quick to dish them out.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

Or maybe we just have better behaved coaches in my area?

I haven't been to South Carolina, but I have been to Virginia, and North Carolina, and I've found that Southerners are very well mannered, and polite, especially compared to those of us that live in the Northeast. Maybe the basketball coaches are as polite, and well manned, as the rest of the population?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

I would suggest that many of you grow a thicker skin. Or maybe we just have better behaved coaches in my area?

I guess maybe I need to start handing out T's in order to be accepted?

Many, many moons ago I stopped refereeing to coach a few years. When I went back to refereeing,(still young age) I was "thick skinned" because I was a coach and understood their frustration at times.

Then I came to realize it wasn't about how much I could tolerate. Rules say coach can't act like a knucklehead. If he does, T. It's just another call. Follow rules. When we let a coach act up repeatedly we are not doing our job. The other coach loses confidence in us. I'm not saying go crazy on Ts but what you can tolerate is not the standard. Good luck

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

Let's assume that somebody doesn't call this a double dribble, which I agree it is. Could the "secondary" call (if you miss the double dribble) be a travel? You essentially ended up passing to yourself after you lost your dribble. I think that is the call that the crowd, coaches, and players would understand and not argue with.

I'm going to say this again. Recovering a fumble is never a travel. You can't travel if you don't have possession of the ball.

4-44-1. Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball.