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-   -   I also cannot think straight (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/100545-i-also-cannot-think-straight.html)

SD Referee Mon Dec 28, 2015 04:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 974428)
You can't call a fumble a travel. My argument was to the validity of an intended action and then changing your mind on what you wanted to do and therefore having an unintended consequence. Visa-vie a fumble on what was going to be a pass that then wasn't.

In your case a clear fumble CANNOT be a travel, on any planet.

Also not having a T in 10 years is a big red flag to me. I don't see how one can go 10 games without a T.
I'm not trying to be adversarial, but you seem to be. I'm looking for good discussion and help to become better. Why is it so hard to accept that I haven't given a T to a coach? I have given to players, but not coaches. I guess I just have thicker skin than most. It must not be too big of a red flag in my state.

I'm not going to make any sort of call on this as I wasn't there and have no idea how it really went down. I don't think any of us can give a 100% accurate answer.

so cal lurker Mon Dec 28, 2015 04:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Referee (Post 974425)
If somebody dribbles, then picks it up, fumbles it and then retrieves it. The whole place is going to yell "TRAVEL!!!!!!" I wouldn't argue with somebody that calls the travel.
Why not? How, under NFHS rules could this possibly be a travel? I just don't see any theoretical basis under which it could be a travel.
Quote:
You know that a large percentage of players are going to try to retrieve the ball by batting down at, giving the appearance of a dribble. The question then becomes by batting down at it, making contact, and getting the ball to bounce up, does that constitute double dribble?
That's why you get the big bucks, right? To decide if it was a controlled bat that constituted a dribble? DD is certainly a possibility if either (1) the referee determines it was not a fumble, or (2) if the player does something the referee considers a dribble while collecting the ball.
Quote:
I don't care what anybody other than me and my partners think, but a travel seems like a logical call and a call that the crowd, players, and coaches will buy. I don't think either coach or any of the players would argue it if it happens like it is happening in my mind. . . . Whether you care about what anybody else in the arena thinks doesn't matter, but you have to admit that a travel call probably keeps the place quiet and isn't a necessarily wrong call.
Still don't see how it is not necessarily a wrong call. What did the player do that could possibly be a travel?
Quote:
I also didn't realize that NOT giving a T to a coach in 10 years, would set me up to be a target on here. Is it really that tough to believe.
Darn straight its hard to believe. You must have shockingly well behaved coaches or be stunningly lucky to not have a situation in 10 years where a T was clearly warranted. Possible, but really, really hard for many of us to believe based on experience.

SD Referee Mon Dec 28, 2015 04:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 974440)
Why not? How, under NFHS rules could this possibly be a travel? I just don't see any theoretical basis under which it could be a travel.That's why you get the big bucks, right? To decide if it was a controlled bat that constituted a dribble? DD is certainly a possibility if either (1) the referee determines it was not a fumble, or (2) if the player does something the referee considers a dribble while collecting the ball.Still don't see how it is not necessarily a wrong call. What did the player do that could possibly be a travel?
Darn straight its hard to believe. You must have shockingly well behaved coaches or be stunningly lucky to not have a situation in 10 years where a T was clearly warranted. Possible, but really, really hard for many of us to believe based on experience.
I would suggest that many of you grow a thicker skin. Or maybe we just have better behaved coaches in my area?

I guess maybe I need to start handing out T's in order to be accepted?

Adam Mon Dec 28, 2015 05:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Referee (Post 974441)
I would suggest that many of you grow a thicker skin. Or maybe we just have better behaved coaches in my area?

I guess maybe I need to start handing out T's in order to be accepted?
It's possible that you've had ten years of well behaved coaches who heeded your warnings.

It's possible you just take whatever abuse they want to give you and consider an honor to have thick skin.

Chances are, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Some are afraid to hand out deserved Ts, and others are too quick to dish them out.

BillyMac Mon Dec 28, 2015 06:02pm
Possible, But Not Probable ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Referee (Post 974441)
Or maybe we just have better behaved coaches in my area?
I haven't been to South Carolina, but I have been to Virginia, and North Carolina, and I've found that Southerners are very well mannered, and polite, especially compared to those of us that live in the Northeast. Maybe the basketball coaches are as polite, and well manned, as the rest of the population?

Raymond Mon Dec 28, 2015 09:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Referee (Post 974438)
I'm not trying to be adversarial, but you seem to be. I'm looking for good discussion and help to become better. Why is it so hard to accept that I haven't given a T to a coach? I have given to players, but not coaches. I guess I just have thicker skin than most. It must not be too big of a red flag in my state.

I'm not going to make any sort of call on this as I wasn't there and have no idea how it really went down. I don't think any of us can give a 100% accurate answer.
I have no opinion on the number of T's you've given, but it has nothing to do with thick skin as compared to others.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

BigCat Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Referee (Post 974441)
I would suggest that many of you grow a thicker skin. Or maybe we just have better behaved coaches in my area?

I guess maybe I need to start handing out T's in order to be accepted?
Many, many moons ago I stopped refereeing to coach a few years. When I went back to refereeing,(still young age) I was "thick skinned" because I was a coach and understood their frustration at times.

Then I came to realize it wasn't about how much I could tolerate. Rules say coach can't act like a knucklehead. If he does, T. It's just another call. Follow rules. When we let a coach act up repeatedly we are not doing our job. The other coach loses confidence in us. I'm not saying go crazy on Ts but what you can tolerate is not the standard. Good luck

OKREF Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Referee (Post 973799)
Let's assume that somebody doesn't call this a double dribble, which I agree it is. Could the "secondary" call (if you miss the double dribble) be a travel? You essentially ended up passing to yourself after you lost your dribble. I think that is the call that the crowd, coaches, and players would understand and not argue with.
I'm going to say this again. Recovering a fumble is never a travel. You can't travel if you don't have possession of the ball.

4-44-1. Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball.

SD Referee Tue Dec 29, 2015 09:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 974466)
I'm going to say this again. Recovering a fumble is never a travel. You can't travel if you don't have possession of the ball.

4-44-1. Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball.
What if a player picks up their dribble and they conveniently "fumble" the ball towards the hoop, pick it up before the defense (bad defense by the way) and then shoot a layup? No call?

I very well understand the rules and the definitions. It just doesn't seem like a legal basketball move when you are stuck without your dribble. I guess we have to go back to you can fumble-dribble-fumble but you cannot dribble-fumble-dribble.

BlueDevilRef Tue Dec 29, 2015 09:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Referee (Post 974482)
What if a player picks up their dribble and they conveniently "fumble" the ball towards the hoop, pick it up before the defense (bad defense by the way) and then shoot a layup? No call?



I very well understand the rules and the definitions. It just doesn't seem like a legal basketball move when you are stuck without your dribble. I guess we have to go back to you can fumble-dribble-fumble but you cannot dribble-fumble-dribble.

Fumble is not an intentional act like the one described by you.


I wish I had a cool signature

bob jenkins Tue Dec 29, 2015 09:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Referee (Post 974482)
conveniently "fumble"
Impossible.

Eastshire Tue Dec 29, 2015 09:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Referee (Post 974482)
What if a player picks up their dribble and they conveniently "fumble" the ball towards the hoop, pick it up before the defense (bad defense by the way) and then shoot a layup? No call?

I very well understand the rules and the definitions. It just doesn't seem like a legal basketball move when you are stuck without your dribble. I guess we have to go back to you can fumble-dribble-fumble but you cannot dribble-fumble-dribble.
You're working very hard to justify ignoring the rule.

If they "fumble" the ball, you have judged them to have released it intentionally. It is an illegal dribble when they touch it again. (Not travelling, despite your desire to make the call everyone in the gym wants.)

If they in fact fumble the ball, there is nothing illegal there. It is a no call.

You can't determine whether a release was intentional based on whether it was beneficial to the offense. You have to actually use your judgement.

so cal lurker Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Referee (Post 974482)
What if a player picks up their dribble and they conveniently "fumble" the ball towards the hoop, pick it up before the defense (bad defense by the way) and then shoot a layup? No call?
If it is merely convenient (i.e. fortuitous in time) -- but actually a fumble -- then there is no call to be made; if it is, in the opinion of the referee, deliberately released to look like a fumble, then it is a violation -- but it is not a travelling violation.

You've made a lot of posts in this thread, but still not provided any rules basis on which the play in question could possibly be a traveling violation.

Adam Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Referee (Post 974482)
What if a player picks up their dribble and they conveniently "fumble" the ball towards the hoop, pick it up before the defense (bad defense by the way) and then shoot a layup? No call?

I very well understand the rules and the definitions. It just doesn't seem like a legal basketball move when you are stuck without your dribble. I guess we have to go back to you can fumble-dribble-fumble but you cannot dribble-fumble-dribble.
You use your judgment. If you think the fumble was intentional, then it's not a fumble so you can make a call. If you think it's a fumble, there's no call to make.

BatteryPowered Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:48am
OK...raises hand and confesses...I did not read every post so my apologies if these have been asked previously.

To those contending this is a pass...have you ever seen a player fake a pass? I have. How do you know that the player INTENDED to pass the ball? Just because it looks like that was the intent? Isn't deception one of the characteristics of a good fake?

As far as I am concerned...the situation in the OP is a fumble and can be recovered by anyone.


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