Fan Ejected
 

Travis Ford was ejected (as a fan) from his son's HS varsity game the other night in Stillwater.

Oklahoma State basketball coach Travis Ford ejected from high school game

There may be some media bias and/or inaccuracy in the story. At the very least we don't know exactly what happened or what was said.

My issue, on a larger scale, is that officials should not be ejecting fans, known celebrities or not. That's what game management is for (especially in a big 6A gym like Stillwater HS). At the very least, if an official has an issue, he/she should quietly consult with the game manager during a timeout and mention the issue, then let him/her handle it from there. In this case, it looks like an official actually stopped the game and therefore made a scene. To me, that's very poor form.

6A 3-person varsity crew. :(

Balderdash. I ejected a fan in the first row couple nights ago (second in 14 years). I went to the site admin, pointed at the fan, and said he's done for the night. 5 seconds later there were 3 site personnel by the fan escorting him out.

I saw nothing in the article that suggested the officials were the ones that ejected him from the game. I am going to assume that the officials did not escort him from the building. And depending on what he said, he can be removed at the instruction of the officials. We do not have to put up with his crap. And if he wants to be treated as a regular parent, then sit down and shut up like I believe most parents do for the most part.

Peace

That's what he gets for losing to Tulsa and Missouri St.

I was thinking about this last night. I am doing a few junior high games this year as a favor, and last night was the first one. There was no administrator on site, just the coaches. At that point, how would you guys handle an out of control fan. Obviously it's pretty unlikely at a middle school game, but I wasn't really sure what I'd do if it got to that point.

If it was clear what team he/she was with I would tell that coach to remove the fan, and if they failed to do it I would forfeit/suspend the game. I'm not going to stay and get abused, and at a MS game no less.

Pro bono?

If you're getting paid, it's not a favor. ;)

As to your question, I don't work games in facilities that don't have some sort of game mgmt or site admin whom I can turn to handle situations.

Years ago, I watched a fan sitting on the endline pick up the loose ball at his feet, stand and argue with the official for a few seconds before slamming the ball into the ground. The official pointed to the door and the game administrator was there to escort him out shortly thereafter. I don't know how it could have been handled any better by anybody (except the fan).

It was in the Twitter box via eyewitness account. Not in the article itself.

Correct.

I agree, but what I'm saying is that I'd pass the instruction quietly to game management and let them handle it. If I start to let my emotions get the best of me by stopping the game, pointing at the fan so everyone can see me....then I'll end up like Karl Hess and I don't need that kind of publicity. And if you're thinking, "Well what if it's so bad that it absolutely has to be taken care of immediately," I would hope that game management would already be on top of it if it's that obvious. Of course in this case, I suppose if GM was reluctant to remove a well-known D1 coach and the officials had to do something because GM didn't do their job, that would be more understandable.

Incorrect. It's game managements responsibility to remove unruly fans, especially if it's at our instruction. If they fail to do this duty then I would fail to finish the game. I would then write a report and send it up the ladder. It's that simple. I will not go into the stands to actually do the removal, but I sure as hell would be the one responsible for WHY the fan is being removed.

There is only so much we can do and I sure as hell have 0 desire to want to work at a location that does not provide a safe and stable game environment for the officials.

#1: Please quit using Lime, I cannot see the letters. ;)

#2: How do we know he wasn't quietly pointed out to game mgmt?

I understand what you're saying here. I blocked the dates from my assignor because the AD asked me to do them. So yes, I'm getting paid, but it was something that I could have turned down. Which I will do if there is no game administrator at any more of these games.

#1: Sorry.

#2: It's inferred from the Twitter dialogue that an eyewitness said "the official stopped the game....and pointed." Or something like that.

But I don't want to get wrapped around the axle about this particular case because there are a lot of gaps in the details. I was using it as a segue to the broader topic of "what's the best way to handle a situation like this?" Good discussion so far, although I respectfully disagree with deecee's very direct approach. I'm just saying I would at least start by trying to use a middleman (i.e. game manager).

I have used both approaches. It depends on how obnoxious the fan is, whether others already know what the fan is doing (or whether it's a quiet statement to me), how quickly I want the fan gone, where game management is, etc.

I've had one fan removed from a game. I went to game admin, who always sat near the scorer's table at this site. It was obvious that I was the one who had the fan removed b/c I had to walk across the court to inform admin about the situation.

Later in the game (in OT in fact), I called a foul on a defender, who was then taunted by the person he fouled (Tyrod Taylor). When I turn around from reporting everything, there is a fight at the top of the stands between Taylor's dad and the other player's uncle.

IOW, we had a great crowd that night. And bottom line, when I have a unruly crowd like that to deal with, I'm more concerned about safety than I am about the optics.

It seems like every year, I have at least one fan who thinks their $4 allows them to sit in the front row and yell at the officials.

My favorite is when we go to a private christian school playing another private christian school and get yelled at for 4 quarters. Its all respectful when the anthem and prayer are being said, but throw that ball up in the air and the devil takes over. :)

In most of the gyms I work, the game administrator has always been helpful. I usually ask them to work with the fan so they can stick around to watch the game. I try to give the benefit of the doubt. A few years ago we had a guy sitting first row at half court, about 45 years old with his hat on backwards. He had something to say after every call. The administrator went over and said, "you can keep your comments quiet and stay, pay me an extra $100 so I can get another official, or leave the gym." The guy left at half time and watch the game from the windows outside.

If there is no one else then the Home Head Coach is the site game admin.

Depending on how much he's getting paid....

#2: I'm ok with this. I'll just say to see what bob wrote. I'd normally recommend quietly approaching GM, but sometimes we need to have things move more quickly than that would allow.

$90. ABC 6 min quarters. C game is pretty brutal. Actually A & B are pretty brutal too. It's fun though, I don't mind doing it as long as everything is organized well. The girl working the table was one of the best I've ever had which was really unexpected.

+1

I ejected my first fans in years during a Holiday tournament thanksgiving week (6th grade tournament). An Army buddy of mine puts on this every year. I go as a favor to him because most if you not all of the referees are younger official’s (1st -2nd year). It’s an opportunity for mentoring the next group coming up. Championship game and this guy is being as complete a$$. More importantly it finely came to a point where it was effecting the play on the court. Tweet...I go over to my buddy and ask him to remove the parent. Some of the other parents from both sides were already beginning to self-police, but it had to be addressed. Closely followed by a T on that coach whose behavior was also out of line. I have much less tolerance for these kinds of antics at the lower levels. Conduct by fans, and more importantly the coach(es) can directly affect the physical nature of play. Maintaining good order and discipline is part of your job. Even if it happens on very rare occasions.

Buncha wimps,

The rules give us a definitive option to remove fans ourselves. I have gone to ADs or whatever form of management was around when I saw it to be the best fit. I've done it myself when I've seen it to be the best fit. There are obvious advantages to doing it yourself if you understand social constructs and have good judgement. Going to management every time is fine when you haven't been around for a while, but there's better ways to deal with game management.

Don't forget to assess a team technical foul to the side affiliated with the fan. ;)

In a case such as Ford, it is clear which team he is with.

I can't really tell with the face what your thoughts are on the subject and I'd like to hear them.

I've kicked out numerous fans and never assessed a team technical foul for it.

Personally, I think officials worry to much about how something looks. If it has risen to this point with any fan, player, or coach deal with it and move on. It was already a disruption, so quickly pause and have GM deal with it. I take none of this personally. I don't officiate for the players, coaches, or fans. I do it because I enjoy it. When that's not the case anymore I will quit.

Just consider whether you believe that teams should be held accountable for the behavior of their spectators and then ponder what impact that would have on the behavior.

He’s joking. This has been discussed many times over the years. Even if it’s warranted a “T” in this case fixed nothing, and most likely will only make it worse.

Then stop officiating.

Without the Officials Code of Ethics or Missions Statement what is the point of being patched?

I'm aware and I still wanted his take on the subject. He gave it and I'm happy with it.

On the contrary, the fan behavior is poor because people are not held accountable for their actions.
If the behavior is bad enough to warrant removal, ask yourself why the affiliated school/team shouldn't be penalized?
Sadly, the same people who moan about poor sportsmanship are the same ones unwilling to do something to address the problem.

Give the coach a chance to deal with the fan. If the coach refuses to deal with it, or if he can't deal with it (fan refuses to leave), you really only have 2 options: call the game and get the heck out of there, or get law enforcement involved.

Why does my Opinion have to automatically warrant me to stop officiating. It's like the 2nd or 3rd time you've told someone to stop officiating because they don't agree with you. I do not believe that giving T's to fans is a best practice. I can't even think of a reason to do this. Other than the toilet paper toss that everyone know is coming. Now if that's what you, or your organization feels is needed by all means whack away. If a situation has risen to the point that the fans have become such a determent to the game; a T is the least of your problems.

Your name might say "Dad", but your not mine. I'll continue to officiate in manner consisant with the principles of my state and local association. If I want to go back to doing grade school and middle school ball i'll consider your advice.

Fair enough,

I'll remove the cancer and move on. For me that's addressed enough. In extreme cases parents have been banned from attending school functions. Problem fixed. If you want to start giving out T's as part of your solution great it's just not mine.

It's like the.... zero.

Well, without them you're really not officiating now are you? Get it?

Again, read the missions statement and the officials code of ethics. It is what you signed up for.

I have never given a tech to a fan, but have kicked plenty out. I also don't have unruly games. I think at some point you confused my points -- probably when believing I was trying to insult you.

Dad are my initials, but your comment did get a laugh out of me.

Is that in response to him saying he does it because he enjoys it?

Nope, was a response to a play on words.

Well you're going to have to direct that at several people here. From either knowing them, or the quality of their posts, they are solid officials too.

I do this because it keeps me involved in the sports that I like. The players are for the game is for and I don't lose sight of that fact but I do this primarily for me.

Wow, numerous?

What are you talking about?

I don't moan. I'm not adverse to addressing unacceptable behavior from the crowd (as noted in an earlier post). I'm not T'ing up a team b/c some a-hole roots for them.

I'm not scared to leave my holy ground of varsity games to clean up some wreck ball.

I was wondering the same thing. I've only even considered it a couple of times, but found other ways to address it each time.

Sorry, you don't get to tell someone he should stop officiating just because he has different reasons than you do for doing it.

High school and above I've only ever had to remove one fan.

So true. People absolutely lose their minds, not to mention their religion, once the ball is tipped to start the game. Pride, ego and insecurity always rears it's ugly head.

It's not worth me leaving my house for.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

You clearly don't care about the game...or the children.

Edit: Crap, I just realized that the blue font probably doesn't make a difference for you, does it? ;)

werd

Like It Was Yesterday ...
 

Several years ago, I had a prep school fan step onto the court to complain about a call, he actually walked right up to me during a dead ball. No athletic director. No site director. I walked calmly over the home team head coach and told him that the fan had to be removed from the gymnasium. Assistant coach jumped off the bench and said that I couldn't do that. I asked him to sit down. Head coach says that there is no athletic director, or site director to remove the fan. Assistant coach jumps back up to complain, so he gets served a cup of tea. I tell the head coach that we're not playing until the fan was removed. I didn't threaten forfeit, I just said that we're waiting until the fan was removed. Finally, he walked over to the fan, and convinces him leave the gym. First, and only, time in thirty-five years. I can't guarantee that it won't happen again.

Laughable. This may get my vote for dumbest forum post, for all the reasons already stated.

Reading Is Fundamental ...
 

bballref3966: You, obviously, haven't read many of my posts.

Me neither. I like my freedom, because I will go to jail if I kept doing that stuff.

Peace

I've been doing this for 29 years. I'll let you know when I start doing it for the kids.

This may be the second post from Billy Mac that I've ever agreed with. :)

I've removed a handful of fans - maybe three in wreck games and exactly two in HS, all for entering the floor to confront me.

The two high school removals were both in the same game, at about the same time, but separate and (as far as I know) unrelated. At halftime of a girls district playoff game last year, a man came out of the stands, walked around the scorers table, and started toward us (we were walking toward the table) in a very confrontational manner. We stopped walking, he was intercepted by an assistant coach, and eye contact with the GM was enough. THEN, while GM was removing this gentleman and we were walking toward the tunnel, another man came around the home bench and started walking backward in front of us, sticking his chest out like he was trying to get us to bump him so he could start a fight. Again, we stopped walking; he turned tail and disappeared. I described him to GM and they found him upstairs in the third quarter.

Just bizarre.

We all in some way or another officiate for our own selfish reasons. I wouldn't officiate if I didn't find it enjoyable. I do, however, think that taking the job seriously is important and that includes being professional.

For example:
Officials shall uphold the honor and dignity of the profession in all interactions with student-athletes, coaches, etc.
Officials shall remain mindful that their conduct influences the respect that student-athletes, coaches and the public hold for the profession.

For me, officiating a game involves several parties. I look out for myself first, but I still think it's important to take athletes, coaches, and fans into consideration-- to some extent.

I'm just addressing the significant portion of people who think it's blasphemous to not nod your head vehemently when they say, "We do it for the kids."

(I have my own kid -- she'll be 11 next month -- and if I'm doing anything for kids it's staying home to be with her.)

I officiate for numerous reasons, and one of them is definitely "for the kids". I know plenty whose list doesn't include "for the kids" and it shows.

I did not get involve in this for any other reason then I love sports and the sports I officiate and I am competitive to do the job correctly. Never has the "kids" really crossed my mind. I do this because it is fun and I would rather not coach. And I get paid so I would not do it for free.

That code of ethics has nothing to do with why we leave our home. There are other things we can do other than officiate and if the motivation is that narrow most of us would not do this at all. And just by the numbers we often lose, obviously there are people not finding the motivations in the right place to stay. This "It is all about the kids" crap gets on my nerves, certainly with the fact that I do not just do games with kids.

Peace

I hope your implication is because someone does not use the "for the kids..." line as their motivation or inspiration that they are not doing a good job? Is an official that works college or pro ball including but not limited to the NBA is doing this for the "kids?"

Peace

I'm talking about sub varsity/varsity ball.

There are a lot of "kids" playing collegiate and NBA hoops, but, those two worlds are far different than h.s. ball in terms of what I mean when uttering the phrase "for the kids".

The point I was making, there are people that have aspirations beyond high school. Doing high school does not mean you are only concerned about that level or are trying to do a good job because of what they are currently working. Actually most of the time the officials I see that do the best job, do other levels because they care about their craft by paying money to be evaluated and want to take every opportunity at all levels to get better and be hired at other levels. I know a lot of high school guys that think they have arrived or want a lot of things handed to them because they live in a certain place or they work for a certain assignor. That is why your "for the kids" position is flawed.

Peace

Motivation is that narrow? I don't know what you mean. Everyone has their own motivation for being an official.

As for "It's all about the kids," I just ignore the ambiguous statement. It's not like you're going to get a good answer asking someone what they mean.

I treat players/athletes in a professional manner. Most of the time at least, sometimes I can't resist telling a player/coach my opinion on their amazing play after they've given me their opinion on my call.

I think it's presumptuous to think there's a right reason to work HS games. You work for your reasons and I'll work for mine.

How'd this thread go from talking about ejecting a fan to everyone's personal motiviation to be an official?

One can only start a thread. Where it ends up, it ends up.... :D

I thought that part of the administrators' responsibilities was to help keep a thread on topic, and redirect when needed, not become a part of the problem. :D

Heh, right.

Is Brad around anymore?

My only point was that whatever your reason is you officiate, it is your reason. I am not looking for an answer or even care why someone answers as long as they are doing something they enjoy and it is legal and moral. Other than that, I really do not care why someone officiates. Some official just to make money. Some officiate to stay in shape. Some officiate because they want to stay close to the sport and some officiate just because the want to get out of the house. All those things and more are fine by me.

Peace

This, exactly.

I don't care what your motivation is, as long as you are interested in doing the best job you can do on a given night.

Good thoughts and comments.

Apologies to the OP for jumping off the main track! :D

Exactly how does it show?

I don't mind people saying they do it "for the kids" so much. I get a little salty when they start saying everyone needs to be motivated that way. Most I know are not.

Attitude and ego. Not to the same degree with everyone, but it can be detected. I'm so used to it, that I have no problem dealing with and adjusting to it. It just is what it is. I'm not in the business of changing people and their motivation for doing what they do. Those things take care of themselves w/o my help.

I'll put words in your mouth.

He's probably referring to officials who do lower level games, such as middle school, and it's obvious they don't care about the game or doing a good job. They think it's below their skill level(So they don't give a decent effort) and just want an easy double header $90.

Cliche example: I'm not calling a foul in the final seconds if it's a close game and my call my cause OT. I want outa here!

What fantasy world do you live in?

I call bull crap on that bolded statement. Highly skilled officials who do lower level games elevate the quality of officiating. This causes the participants and fans to wonder why they don't get that quality of officiating all the time.

I've found that "for the kids" officials aren't really into training and getting better. They are there just for the reason stated, for the kids to have officials available to work their games.

Shut things down -- overintrusive moderators.

Leave things take their natural course -- not doing our jobs.

Perhaps I should've locked the thread after the first five posts when it simply became boring. :D

My usual HS partner and I did some 7th grade girls games the night before my season opener. I did it mainly for the cash I was getting at the end of the night, also to shake off some rust. "For the kids" was not on the list.

Worked 3 games. A parent in game 1 and one in game 3 told us we were the best officials they'd ever seen working their kid's games.

Did we run at full speed? When needed. Did we switch on every foul? Hell to the no.

And yet they don't donate the cash they "earn" back to the program, do they?

You're saying no one in the history of officiating has ever done a poor game because they thought a game was beneath them?

I completely agree with everything you said, I was just saying there are instances where "attitudes and egos" can affect a game. It's insanely rare, imo, but it can still exist.

So can unicorns but I'm not holding my breath. Usually if an official works a game they do a decent job. I am more apt to see officials at higher levels not call "game changing" fouls late in games for the sake of "game management" than at lower level games.

Usually poor officials do poor jobs and vice versa. Let's not kid ourselves but I could probably do a 7th grade game standing still at half court. Most of these games call themselves.

Yup, I can usually find him within minutes if I need him.

I also never said highly skilled officials. This is what I get for trying to be a translator, lol.

Funny you mention that. I was watching my kid play on Saturday (5th grader) and I turned to my wife and said, "I could call a better game sitting here in the bleachers." I was completely serious, too.

So...when you aren't calling the game you just become another one of those spectators bashing the officials to other spectators. :D

In my experience, doing it "for the kids" does not vaccinate officials against "attitudes and egos."

If you consider me quietly whispering to my wife than yes, yes I am.

But they were equally awful both ways, so who really cares?

At least they were consistent :eek: :D

Just giving you a hard time.

I suspect we have all been in the stands at games and thought "Oh my...really?" about the one wearing the odd looking shirts.

Guilty.

But, I keep my mouth shut during those sub varsity games. Instead of whispering to my wife, I just give her that glance...that look...and she knows what I'm thinking about the officiating/situation.

We're human...and proud parents.

What is really bad is if someone else knows you are an official and ask (basically) "What the hell was that?" I usually just fall back on "They were right there and had a good look. Our perspective up here is completely different."

I 2nd this. Was just saying what he may have meant by putting the two together.

This past weekend, I attended a fundraiser put on by one of our local high schools to support the basketball program. $20 a plate gets you a great Hawaiian dinner and Luau. My wife and I attended at a cost of $40. I ran into one of my fellow officials at the Luau, and he said, "Don't think of this as a $40 date, think of it as a temporary loan to the program." :D

Yep. Same.

No question where I stand on this issue:D