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Kansas Ref Thu Dec 10, 2015 01:05pm
You're Driving Me Crazy
 
Signals: I frequently see refs exhibiting this hand signal in a "1 & 1 FT scenario", 1st FT try is missed and the ball does not contact the rim, but just bounces off the backboard and lands on floor--the T will pop his whistle, then point to the sky and swirl his index finger around in a circular motion.

My partner did this last night and I told him about it at our halftime locker room break. I asked him as politely and measured as I could (because I know that he chaffs at being corrected on things) I asked exactly like this: "hey, I was curious as to why you were using that finger swirl signal on that missed FT when you were in the Trail?" He replied, "this is the signal we all use for missed FT's, everyone does it, don't you?"
I replied: "the signal you are showing is for a basket interference; for a missed FT which does not hit the rim simply use the normal violation signal (open hand held up) and indicate that we are going the other way with ball now".
He replied: "are you sure about that?"
I did not have my NF books with me, so I could not shew him proof; but I did say "I bet you a pizza that it's true". He said "you're on". Looks like we don't ref together again until January. I realize it is prolly a habit he picked up from watching other refs or it could've been a signal that has since been deleted from the NF? At any rate, it's driving me crazy to see certified refs inappropriately exhibiting this signal.

Rich Thu Dec 10, 2015 01:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 972373)
Signals: I frequently see refs exhibiting this hand signal in a "1 & 1 FT scenario", 1st FT try is missed and the ball does not contact the rim, but just bounces off the backboard and lands on floor--the T will pop his whistle, then point to the sky and swirl his index finger around in a circular motion.

My partner did this last night and I told him about it at our halftime locker room break. I asked him as politely and measured as I could (because I know that he chaffs at being corrected on things) I asked exactly like this: "hey, I was curious as to why you were using that finger swirl signal on that missed FT when you were in the Trail?" He replied, "this is the signal we all use for missed FT's, everyone does it, don't you?"
I replied: "the signal you are exhibiting sir is for a basket interference; for a missed FT which does not hit the rim simply use the normal violation signal (open hand held up) and indicate that we are going the other way with ball now".
He replied: "are you sure about that?"
I did not have my NF books with me, so I could not shew him proof; but I did say "I bet you a pizza that it's true". He said "you're on". Looks like we don't ref together again until January. I realize it is prolly a habit he picked up from watching other refs or it could've been a signal that has since been deleted from the NF. At any rate, it's driving me crazy to see certified refs inappropriately exhibiting this signal.
The "swirl" isn't a signal for ANYTHING.

Find it here: https://www.nfhs.org/media/1015648/b...gnal-chart.pdf

JohnDorian37 Thu Dec 10, 2015 01:09pm
In California the circular finger in air symbol is used to signal a full reset of the shot clock.

Kansas Ref Thu Dec 10, 2015 01:14pm
Wow! looks like refs in Cali are using it for a shot clock re-set; out here in Kansas we don't use shot clock for H/S hoop.

so cal lurker Thu Dec 10, 2015 01:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDorian37 (Post 972375)
In California the circular finger in air symbol is used to signal a full reset of the shot clock.
Does high school have a partial reset or are all resets full? (I know NBA violations are a reset to 14.)

HokiePaul Thu Dec 10, 2015 01:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich (Post 972374)
The "swirl" isn't a signal for ANYTHING.

Find it here: https://www.nfhs.org/media/1015648/b...gnal-chart.pdf

Off topic, but did the signal for indicating free throws change? I could have sworn that there was a signal with hands out to the side indicating the number of free throws. Now it looks more like what you'd expect, but not what I remember being taught.

bob jenkins Thu Dec 10, 2015 01:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 972373)
I replied: "the signal you are showing is for a basket interference;
He was wrong.

So were you.

(Local instructions to the contrary.)

JohnDorian37 Thu Dec 10, 2015 01:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 972381)
Does high school have a partial reset or are all resets full? (I know NBA violations are a reset to 14.)
All resets are full.

The shot clock rules are the same as in NCAA except for a kick/striking with fist violation against the defense. In NCAA after such a violation the shot clock is reset to 15 if it is under 15 (and otherwise not reset). In HS a kick/strike is a full reset.

deecee Thu Dec 10, 2015 01:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 972386)
He was wrong.

So were you.

(Local instructions to the contrary.)
Bob is correct.

BI mechanic is finger pointing down and then swirled over the other hand making an "O" symbol.

Shot clock reset is finger pointing up and then swirled. NY state resets to 15 below 15 and when I was in California (4 years ago) it was full reset at all times.

On a FT violation where the ball doesn't make contact the rim I usually point to the rim. I may swirl the finger, I don't know, but who cares. If my partner brings THIS up to me I would literally laugh in his/her face. Some mechanics may not be by the book but are used to convey information to the coaches and players.

The more egregious offenses are OVER THE BACK calls and signals. That's 100% wrong by rule and everything.

so cal lurker Thu Dec 10, 2015 01:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDorian37 (Post 972391)
All resets are full.

The shot clock rules are the same as in NCAA except for a kick/striking with fist violation against the defense. In NCAA after such a violation the shot clock is reset to 15 if it is under 15 (and otherwise not reset). In HS a kick/strike is a full reset.
Thx -- that's what I thought (I'm a BB dad not a coach/ref).

Had a game critical reset last night on a player for a kick jumping in front of a throw in when shot clock was at 3 and game clock at 11. (Fans of the kicker were outraged and adamant that it wasn't a kick (I remain gobsmacked at behavior of parents at JV HS games and what they yell at refs, but I digress . . ). I suspect it was a good call - tough to judge from the stands (and with my own bias) but kid probably was reaching his foot toward where he thought the ball was to be thrown.)

JohnDorian37 Thu Dec 10, 2015 01:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 972395)
Thx -- that's what I thought (I'm a BB dad not a coach/ref).

Had a game critical reset last night on a player for a kick jumping in front of a throw in when shot clock was at 3 and game clock at 11. (Fans of the kicker were outraged and adamant that it wasn't a kick (I remain gobsmacked at behavior of parents at JV HS games and what they yell at refs, but I digress . . ). I suspect it was a good call - tough to judge from the stands (and with my own bias) but kid probably was reaching his foot toward where he thought the ball was to be thrown.)
Hard to imagine a scenario in which a throw-in hits the leg/foot of a player defending the throw-in and we don't have a kick violation. Maybe if the thrower is trying a bounce pass between the defender's legs? Or maybe the thrower intentionally throws the ball at the defender's foot/leg thinking that will earn a shot clock reset?

BEAREF Thu Dec 10, 2015 01:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 972393)
Bob is correct.

BI mechanic is finger pointing down and then swirled over the other hand making an "O" symbol.

Shot clock reset is finger pointing up and then swirled. NY state resets to 15 below 15 and when I was in California (4 years ago) it was full reset at all times.

On a FT violation where the ball doesn't make contact the rim I usually point to the rim. I may swirl the finger, I don't know, but who cares. If my partner brings THIS up to me I would literally laugh in his/her face. Some mechanics may not be by the book but are used to convey information to the coaches and players.

The more egregious offenses are OVER THE BACK calls and signals. That's 100% wrong by rule and everything.
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
The "swirl" isn't a signal for ANYTHING.

Find it here: https://www.nfhs.org/media/1015648/b...gnal-chart.pdf

according to this chart there is no signal for basket interference or goaltendind...so how can he be wrong? ;)

deecee Thu Dec 10, 2015 02:12pm
This is the signal

http://www.nba.com/features/images/hands24.gif

It may not be in the HS approved signal chart but we have BI in the rule book so let's just adopt what the signal is so we have one. I don't know why they haven't added it but I remember seeing it, and now I have to go get my book from the car, in this years iaabo rule book we get. I may be wrong, probably am.

Rich Thu Dec 10, 2015 02:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAREF (Post 972398)
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
The "swirl" isn't a signal for ANYTHING.

Find it here: https://www.nfhs.org/media/1015648/b...gnal-chart.pdf

according to this chart there is no signal for basket interference or goaltendind...so how can he be wrong? ;)
I was wishing him luck in finding it.

I see the "toilet bowl swirl" signal's been posted, too. That's one of my favs, right up with the one-handed creeping death I saw used in my daughter's 5th grade game last week.

BatteryPowered Thu Dec 10, 2015 02:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 972373)
Signals: I frequently see refs exhibiting this hand signal in a "1 & 1 FT scenario", 1st FT try is missed and the ball does not contact the rim, but just bounces off the backboard and lands on floor--the T will pop his whistle, then point to the sky and swirl his index finger around in a circular motion.

My partner did this last night and I told him about it at our halftime locker room break. I asked him as politely and measured as I could (because I know that he chaffs at being corrected on things) I asked exactly like this: "hey, I was curious as to why you were using that finger swirl signal on that missed FT when you were in the Trail?" He replied, "this is the signal we all use for missed FT's, everyone does it, don't you?"
I replied: "the signal you are showing is for a basket interference; for a missed FT which does not hit the rim simply use the normal violation signal (open hand held up) and indicate that we are going the other way with ball now".
He replied: "are you sure about that?"
I did not have my NF books with me, so I could not shew him proof; but I did say "I bet you a pizza that it's true". He said "you're on". Looks like we don't ref together again until January. I realize it is prolly a habit he picked up from watching other refs or it could've been a signal that has since been deleted from the NF? At any rate, it's driving me crazy to see certified refs inappropriately exhibiting this signal.
Maybe its just me...but if this was the most egregious error made by your partner in the entire game you had one hell of a partner and probably had a good game.

Adam Thu Dec 10, 2015 02:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDorian37 (Post 972397)
Hard to imagine a scenario in which a throw-in hits the leg/foot of a player defending the throw-in and we don't have a kick violation. Maybe if the thrower is trying a bounce pass between the defender's legs? Or maybe the thrower intentionally throws the ball at the defender's foot/leg thinking that will earn a shot clock reset?
Happens a lot. The kick has to be intentional. If the thrower intentionally hits the defender's leg, it could well be nothing.

Nevadaref Thu Dec 10, 2015 02:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDorian37 (Post 972391)
All resets are full.

The shot clock rules are the same as in NCAA except for a kick/striking with fist violation against the defense. In NCAA after such a violation the shot clock is reset to 15 if it is under 15 (and otherwise not reset). In HS a kick/strike is a full reset.
Actually, the CA shot clock rules are a simplified version of the NCAA shot clock rules. There are many differences. One of them being that there are no partial resets. A few years ago the CIF produced an entire document (about 8 pages) covering the CA rules modifications and giving several example play rulings for various shot clock situations.

Valley Man Thu Dec 10, 2015 02:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAREF (Post 972398)
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
The "swirl" isn't a signal for ANYTHING.
The swirl was the technique that George was trying to use from Jerry in the Seinfeld Episode wasn't it?

j51969 Thu Dec 10, 2015 02:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 972393)
Bob is correct.

BI mechanic is finger pointing down and then swirled over the other hand making an "O" symbol.

Shot clock reset is finger pointing up and then swirled. NY state resets to 15 below 15 and when I was in California (4 years ago) it was full reset at all times.

On a FT violation where the ball doesn't make contact the rim I usually point to the rim. I may swirl the finger, I don't know, but who cares. If my partner brings THIS up to me I would literally laugh in his/her face. Some mechanics may not be by the book but are used to convey information to the coaches and players.

The more egregious offenses are OVER THE BACK calls and signals. That's 100% wrong by rule and everything.
+1

It also sounds like you were working 2-man. Either your state does that for varsity or you were working a sub-varsity contests. If you are getting a partner that is competent and is working hard on the court what else can you ask for? Not for nothin' but it makes you sound like an a$$.

Kansas Ref Thu Dec 10, 2015 03:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 972386)
He was wrong.

So were you.

(Local instructions to the contrary.)
*thank you bob jenkin, when we meet up in Jan I will tell him that our errors 'cancelled each other out' and he don't owe me a pie.

Raymond Thu Dec 10, 2015 03:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BatteryPowered (Post 972403)
Maybe its just me...but if this was the most egregious error made by your partner in the entire game you had one hell of a partner and probably had a good game.
If he is doing that I'd assume there is some other stuff he does wrong also. I definitely wouldn't assume it's only error he made.

Kansas Ref Thu Dec 10, 2015 03:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 972393)
Bob is correct.

BI mechanic is finger pointing down and then swirled over the other hand making an "O" symbol.

Shot clock reset is finger pointing up and then swirled. NY state resets to 15 below 15 and when I was in California (4 years ago) it was full reset at all times.

On a FT violation where the ball doesn't make contact the rim I usually point to the rim. I may swirl the finger, I don't know, but who cares. If my partner brings THIS up to me I would literally laugh in his/her face. Some mechanics may not be by the book but are used to convey information to the coaches and players.

The more egregious offenses are OVER THE BACK calls and signals. That's 100% wrong by rule and everything.
*But can you please explain why you are doing "finger swirls" to begin with if you know this is incorrect signaling? And, furthermore, what "information is being conveyed" if no one knows what it means. Although, I gather from the gestalt that this "finger swirl" action has become so ingrained in officiating signaling that it has acquired an "attributed meaning" as opposed to a "certified meaning".

Kansas Ref Thu Dec 10, 2015 03:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by j51969 (Post 972409)
+1

It also sounds like you were working 2-man. Either your state does that for varsity or you were working a sub-varsity contests. If you are getting a partner that is competent and is working hard on the court what else can you ask for? Not for nothin' but it makes you sound like an a$$.
*But who cares if they are laughed at in their face or not? That is irrelevant--the issue is signals--not how we might be touchy feely about being corrected.

j51969 Thu Dec 10, 2015 03:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 972418)
*But who cares if they are laughed at in their face or not? That is irrelevant--the issue is signals--not how we might be touchy feely about being corrected.
Fair enough. It just seems like picking a nit IMO. If he's stuggling in general I would focus on mechcanics that upset the flow and balance of the game. Like....proper location of out of bounds, effectively communitcating shooting or out of bounds, identifying the shooter, primary and secondary areas of coverage, and so on...

so cal lurker Thu Dec 10, 2015 03:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 972393)
The more egregious offenses are OVER THE BACK calls and signals. That's 100% wrong by rule and everything.
You must be wrong. I saw that lurking-bear signal just this week in a JV game. :eek: (And it confirmed some of what I was thinking about the level of officials we had drawn that day . . . )

j51969 Thu Dec 10, 2015 03:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 972424)
You must be wrong. I saw that lurking-bear signal just this week in a JV game. :eek: (And it confirmed some of what I was thinking about the level of officials we had drawn that day . . . )
What is this?

deecee Thu Dec 10, 2015 03:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by j51969 (Post 972425)
What is this?
kinda like this

https://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/im...EeKo4luYy1kYfw

jpgc99 Thu Dec 10, 2015 04:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 972426)
That's an NCAA-M mechanic for walking under / undercutting the shooter with the body while keeping the hands up.

The finger twirl is the ncaa mechanic for resetting the shot clock.

deecee Thu Dec 10, 2015 04:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgc99 (Post 972427)
That's an NCAA-M mechanic for walking under / undercutting the shooter with the body while keeping the hands up.

The finger twirl is the ncaa mechanic for resetting the shot clock.
The NCAA mechanic is actually dislodging with the lower body NOT undercutting the shooter (it could be used for rebounding as well or even possible post play).

You have 2 finger twirl signals (3 actually if you count abbreviated TO for subs) like I said one pointing up and one pointing down over the other hand making an O.

deecee Thu Dec 10, 2015 04:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 972417)
*But can you please explain why you are doing "finger swirls" to begin with if you know this is incorrect signaling? And, furthermore, what "information is being conveyed" if no one knows what it means. Although, I gather from the gestalt that this "finger swirl" action has become so ingrained in officiating signaling that it has acquired an "attributed meaning" as opposed to a "certified meaning".
It's more like a point to the rim to signal what/where the violation was, and I can't remember if I swirl or not. I'm leaning towards sometimes. I think it adds emphasis that I really, really, really saw the violation. :D

bob jenkins Thu Dec 10, 2015 04:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 972431)
one pointing down over the other hand making an O.
I don't see that in the NCAAM Rules book. maybe I missed it. Maybe it's been added since the book was printed.

deecee Thu Dec 10, 2015 04:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 972433)
I don't see that in the NCAAM Rules book. maybe I missed it. Maybe it's been added since the book was printed.
That's how i've been taught the BI signal is at college camps and by D1 officials.

BillyMac Thu Dec 10, 2015 05:31pm
This Is What We're Taught To Do ...
 
IAABO (and maybe NFHS):

Defensive basket interference, or defensive goaltending: Sound the whistle, use the count the basket signal, state "Two points", state "Blue ball", point in the direction of that team's basket, point to the throwin (run the endline) spot.

Offensive basket interference, or offensive goaltending: Sound the whistle, use the no score signal, state "No basket", state "White ball", point in the direction of that team's basket, point to the throwin spot.

IAABO: Basket interference and goaltending violations are reported by going to the reporting area.

BillyMac Thu Dec 10, 2015 05:35pm
Offensive Free Throw Violation ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 972373)
..."1 & 1 FT scenario", 1st FT try is missed and the ball does not contact the rim, but just bounces off the backboard and lands on floor ...
It's an offensive free throw violation. And like any other offensive free throw violation, sound the whistle, state "Violation Blue", state "White ball", point in the direction of that team's basket, point to the throwin spot.

If it misses everything on the first of two shots, we usually don't embarrass the shooter with a whistle.

Camron Rust Thu Dec 10, 2015 07:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 972393)
Bob is correct.

BI mechanic is finger pointing down and then swirled over the other hand making an "O" symbol.
Never seen that one before.

The correct signal is hand up for violation followed by either counting the bucket or canceling the bucket. All communicated, nothing more needed.

Camron Rust Thu Dec 10, 2015 07:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDorian37 (Post 972397)
Hard to imagine a scenario in which a throw-in hits the leg/foot of a player defending the throw-in and we don't have a kick violation. Maybe if the thrower is trying a bounce pass between the defender's legs? Or maybe the thrower intentionally throws the ball at the defender's foot/leg thinking that will earn a shot clock reset?
It isn't difficult at all. What if the thrower attempts a bounce pass near the defenders leg. It can easily hit it and not be a kick. That can be true even if the defender was moving if the defender's movement was consistent and not a reaction to the ball.

jpgc99 Thu Dec 10, 2015 08:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 972433)
I don't see that in the NCAAM Rules book. maybe I missed it. Maybe it's been added since the book was printed.
It's not in the book and I've never seen it used or discussed in any situation or camp. Perhaps a regional thing, but I'm surprised to hear that d1 officials have told deecee to use it. As I said, I've never seen it. And honestly it seems silly to me. Of course, we've seen video of d1 officials giving the traveling signal on a spot throw-in violation, so I would still caution people from using it unless your supervisor has said differently.


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