Clock didn't start on a last Second Shot
 

NFHS Rules:
A1 has a throw in with 4.6 seconds left. Team A is down by 1. We have talked numerous times with the clock operator about starting the clock on the chop. The ball is thrown in bounds and legally touched. The clock starts at least a second or two late. How should we handle this situation?

Let it play out and manually count?

Kill the play once we know the clock hasn't started and restart the situation?

Thoughts?

Does it change when there is only 1.2 seconds on the clock?

Thanks

YES.

NO.

I've been burned before by your exact scenario(s), and that's my takeaway.

At 4.6 I would be tempted to blow the play dead after a second, put 3.6 on the clock remind the clock operator on his/her duties and inform the teams that from this point if there is discrepancy between the clock and chop that they should play until the end (which could be a whistle if the clock doesn't start on time or the horn if it does).

I mean at 3.6 seconds they won't have time to check the clock and any play will be a quick shot, drive to backdoor cut to the basket.

I think I agree with the manual count. If you kill the play, then you're making the offensive team inbound again, which is usually advantage to the defense, AND they must get their shot off quicker. I think there is rules support for stopping the play immediately, but be sure you're ready for the fallout, because at least one of those coaches is not going to be very happy...

The only way I wouldn't blow it dead was if (1) the defense steals the ball and has an uncontested layup or (2) the offense has an immediate scoring opportunity. I would wait for the shot attempt to end and then clean this mess up, which could very well be the end of the game.

If you don't blow it dead and fix it, you're going to have a mess when team A, as they are working for a shot, thinks that have a couple more seconds left and you blow your whistle to end the game with 2.0 seconds showing.

Stop it, take 2 off, resume.

Hopefully, it is team A's clock keeper. If the coach complains in such a case, tell the coach it is their timer.

Tough scenario....

"The clock starts at least a second or two late." Must have definite knowledge; Is it 1 or 2?

Presuming you have "definite knowledge"; player control (only having team control with a loose ball thats about to get stolen, good luck with that), blow it dead, correct the time and resume throw in closest to where the ball was at the whistle blown.

There was a test question this year on the Refresher Exam similar to this play.

If you know it's "at least one or two" then you have definite knowledge that it was one.

The OP stated that the clock operator had become a known liability by the end of the game.

Soooo....I completely agree with the idea of a manual count in the closing seconds of a game like this. That's good preventive officiating. Make it a visible count so that you could later defend your action/decision to an assignor, coach, etc. The first thing they always check is the video.

You should never, ever, manually count and blow the whistle to end the game before the horn sounds in this scenario.

If you do, you may as well flip off the coach while you're at it.

This is not proper advice nor supported by rule. It's not ideal but teams don't get multiple attempts simply because the clock didn't start. I also won't stop play if a team has an imminent opportunity to score. In this case one coach or the other will "feel" ripped off. That's not my concern, and neither should it be yours.

We were having clock issues in our JV/V DH last night; don't know if was b/c of the operator or b/c the switch was malfunctioning. My partner terminated one quarter in the JV game when the clock didn't start.

There's no way you believe what you posted. If these scenarios aren't your concern then why are you an official?

This is never happening in one of my games. Close game with a probable one possession to go to determine the game and you think I'm going to let the table screw it up? Fix the issue earlier or do it then, but my clock is starting when it should for this play.

What do you do when it doesn't? Under a second to play, shot goes in versus miss?

I like that you think you can control what another person is going to do with utmost certainty.

As to coaches feelings, they are not my concern and they shouldn't be any officials concern. That's why I do this.

I would never say never

Varisty level or above....

IMO all Deecee is saying is that we can only do what is supported by rule. We can't just interject what we think is fair. Adversity is part of the game and life. Sometimes it is what it is....

We are fair and impartial, and fair doesn't always mean equal

Incompetence of an official isn't fair to anyone involved in the game.

And yes, never. There are some things I just won't ever let happen.

I have to say good luck with that.

Under a second, I'm counting it out. But with 8 seconds left, I'm stopping it immediately and fixing it. Counting it out from 8 seconds and blowing it dead before the clock gets to 0 when the team IS likely using the clock to know how much time they have left is a horrible idea.

At some point, you should fix it. At some point, you should count it out. What point that should be is certainly open for debate.

Where did 8 seconds come from. I used 3.6 and 2.6 as my baseline.

All my statements were based off 4.6 seconds.

This is kinda cute.

I meant 4.6. After the first stoppage I would inform both teams to play to the whistle. I'm not going to risk 3 stoppages of play to remove 1 second at a time. 3.6 seconds is a lot of time, but then again it isn't and to stop and remove more time after we just addressed this is not fair to the team with the ball (assuming they are on offense and are behind).

Bingo. The manual count in this scenario is clearly the most fair thing to do. Will you have to deal with a coach who's upset afterwards? Yup, almost certainly, but I'll be able to sleep at night knowing the way I handled it, while not preferred, was fair. Keep in mind that there is no provision to put expired time back on the clock, so if you kill it with 3 seconds or whatever it was because the clock didn't start on time, you can't tell the timer, "Ok, make sure you get it this time," and proceed with 3 seconds, at least SOME time needed to run off the clock, which means you're almost certainly screwing over the offensive team by giving them less time and making them inbound again, after the defense has already seen their inbound play. Just because it seems easier to you to have the game end with a horn does not mean it's fair.

Also agree with Cameron, what I just said is up to a point. With 10 seconds left, I might be able to stop it and get things right, depends on the situation.

Informing both teams to play the whistle and not the horn completely changes the scenario, and could very well be a good option.

Though, if I'm this worried my clock is incompetent, I'm finding someone who can press a button when I chop.

I agree, but by this point in the game that's to late.

OP said they talked to the table numerous times. Sounds like the clock wasn't started on time most plays. I just don't think you should get this far with the same person operating the clock.

If for whatever reason you are stuck with that clock, then yes going off the whistle is fine if both teams know what's going on. My original response was to just winging it and blowing your whistle, saying the game is over, and having the offense player screaming he has two more seconds to make a move.

We agree.

I just made it up as an example. I didn't recall any specific times being mentioned outside of the original play...I didn't reread the entire thread.

I only intended to show that with a "lot" of time left it should be fixed and with very little time left it should be counted out. Where it should change from one to the other is an interesting point. At 4.6 -> 3.6, I'd agree with fixing it. If it started at 2.0, probably not....just count it out since by the time you know it didn't start, it should have been at 1.5 or lower.

With 2 seconds left, the players aren't looking at the clock. They know there's 2 seconds. With 8, they'll watch it.

Precisely my point. But what about 3? or 4? or 5? At what point does the situation change?