You keep track of timeouts how?
 

Never, never have I had this in a game. Ever.

Working a BV game Sunday afternoon. Team A's HC casually asks the official scorer how many timeouts his team has left. The scorer tells the coach, the coach says that doesn't seem right because his assistant has something different and can they compare. Then the scorer says...

He keeps track of timeouts in his head.

Why, you may ask, does the scorer do this? The young man tells the HC no one ever told him he had to write them down. The HC makes a beeline to our R to explain what he was just told and the scorer repeats his reasoning for the R.

Incredible.

You have an idea, but I do not rely on my memory. If they tell me they are out that is when I really know. And it is also on the scoreboard from some reference. They ask for a timeout, I am granting it anyway. I think it is left is really not my concern.

Peace

A) I thought most scorebooks these days had places where you can record timeouts, so it should be obvious that your supposed to record the timeouts there. That and most of them have a pretty good sample scorebook on the front pages to go by and a brief training summary.

B)Was there a guest scorebook on the table? We may have a new official book.

Boys Varsity game on a Sunday afternoon?

If this was a tournament, I suppose maybe. If this was a regular season game, I'm guessing it was north of the Mason Dixon line and definitely not in Utah....:D

Edit: Looked at where the OP posted from after I posted. NJ. I am no longer surprised.

I have the crew track as best we can in the following manner:
3-person: R tracks all four of the 30s. U1 tracks the culls for the home team. U2 tracks the fulls for the visiting team.
2-person: R tracks all four 30s. U tracks the visiting team's three fulls for sure, and perhaps the fulls for the home, if he can. If not let the table handle the fulls for the home. If they get screwed, it's their table. I'm going to make certain though that the visiting team gets a fair shake.

Unless, our crew has definite knowledge otherwise, we are going with what is recorded in the book. The scorer should be noting the time and type of TO taken when it is granted.

Ok so much to commentate on here:

-Every book made has spaces either at the top or bottom to record timeouts.What I see a lot from kids is that they mark the type used but don't record the time.This scenario is exactly why I tell kids/newbie adults to write the time in,you'll have a reference as to when they were called.This is scorekeeper 101 and apparently this young man failed.

-From me you'll hear when the last 30 is called for either side and then I'll say either "That's it" or "Final Timeout" with a closed fist:left hand for the team to my left and right hand for the team to my right.I'm starting to work on eliminating giving the count unless asked.

This!

Maybe it's just me but it seems that adds unnecessary confusion.

I've never thought it to be necessary to make sure the scorer will be tracking timeouts, but perhaps I'll start doing that.

It is unnecessary until you find yourself in the middle of a big mess because there is a dispute over either a final time-out or an excessive time-out with 12 seconds left in the 4th quarter of a tied playoff game.

The table is keeping track of timeouts. The teams are keeping track of timeouts (especially during tournaments), I do not see much reason to give checks and balances by what we as a crew keep track of during the game. If there is a dispute, that is why there is an official book and the teams should already know what their situation is before they request one. But if it works for you, more power to you. I just will not be worrying that much about it.

Peace

And if you say one thing, and the scorer says another, it's still a mess.

It's plainly listed in the Scorers' Duties section of Rule 2. I'll let them do their job. I've got enough to worry about.

Wow really? How long does your pregame take??

It's great if you can do it but there's only so much room in my brain...the score keepers are supposed to confer regularly. I know the places where the table is suspect. When I'm there I will tell the visitor's scorekeeper to stay on top of things. Check score, fouls etc to make sure everything is the same. If there's a problem let me know soon. I've never had an error on the number of timeouts.

Spending time at the scorer’s table and discussing their responsibilities prior to the beginning of the game is required by Rule. Failing to do so is a dereliction of the duties of an official.

Rule 2.4.3 Designate the official scorebook and the official scorer prior to the scheduled starting time of the game. Note: Rule 2.11.12 The official scorer is required to wear a black-and-white vertically striped garment.

Rule 2.11 Art.1-12 Scorer’s Duties… to many to list here. However, Rule 2.11.6 Record the time out information charged to each team (who and when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out.

Note: The Referee has the responsibility by Rule to make sure the scorekeeper SHALL perform his/her duties. Copy these Rules and hand them to the table if you have to, but get it done and stop blaming the table for an officials failures.

You were correct in your OP: “Never, never have I had this in a game. Ever.” And if the Referee would perform their duties as required by Rule, this won’t ever happen.

Hope this helps.

To answer the various questions that have arisen (and some that haven't)...

*No, this wasn't a league game though being on a Sunday didn't have anything to do with that.
*It was an 8-team tournament (NYC Public Schools vs. NYC Catholic Schools)
*The scorekeeper was the only scorekeeper at the table so he was it. I've been involved with similar situations with a single scorekeeper at the table and that person always had sense enough to keep track of timeouts by writing them down.

One other thing...

*Regarding the "dereliction of duty" comment: While I always speak with the scorers and timers before a game in 20+ years it never occurred to me to ask a scorekeeper - who has a book sitting in front of them with a spot marked "timeouts" - whether they were writing them down. My R has 30 years in and I'm sure it never occurred to him, either.
*I don't have my rule book on me since I'm at work so...please find the rule citation that says we have to make sure the official scorer SHALL performer his/her duties.
*The R designates the official scorer, etc. and according to the NF manual the R confers with the scorer and timer before the game regarding their responsibilities. Again, if I'm the R and I ask a kid about keeping track of timeouts during the game never in 100 years would it occur to me that the kid wouldn't think writing them down in the scorebook - since they're writing everything else down in the scorebook - wouldn't be a fairly reasonable plan of action.

One "other" other thing...

*My game was the second of the four-game set. The scorer was the same person in game #1. Presumably he was keeping the info in his head during that game and it never became an issue. The only reason we even found out what was happening is he said it to a HC in my game. We alerted the crew in game #3 that it might want to ask the kid to put pencil to paper on timeouts as well as fouls and the score.

If there is only one scorekeeper at the table, the teams have no one that keeps track of any stat but the scorekeeper? Sitting at the table in my experience never was the prerequisite to keep someone from the team to keep track of the game and certainly not something as important as timeouts. Most of the time the coach or someone on the bench tells me or my crew the timeout situation. Rarely is that just left in the hands of the scorekeeper for what I would assume a lot of reasons.

Peace

As I mentioned in the OP, the team was keeping track but the HC was concerned when his assistant's total didn't match what the scorer told him. That triggered the whole conversation.

And these stats people on the bench have what authority in the game? I'm shocked that you would even consider listening to them!

I did not say anything about having authority. But if I am keeping track of my timeouts that I call, I can raise a reasonable issue to tell the table and the officials there is a mistake. It is not the first time a table has screwed up and will not be the last. So yes if I have information that can get the situation right, I will use them. Not all the time is the table associated with the teams. I have had even the team that would benefit give the right information so that they do not benefit from an known mistake. But that is a lot better than you relying on the officials that do not carry around a pen and pad to know the timeout situation. Officials get it wrong when they switch whistles in their pocket and you expect officials off of memory with all the things going around to be a reliable source? I am a football official and we at least are supposed to write down the timeout situation on a card used by everyone. Never seen such a suggestion for basketball officials.

Peace

As a scorekeeper entering his 10th year I still have a hard time with the fact that the kid was keeping track of timeouts in his head.

Question for those of you who work on the floor: When you come over tableside at the end of each quarter to check the book wouldn't you notice no timeouts recorded and say something right there that the kid needs to be recording timeouts?

I do not check the book at every quarter, that is what the table people are for. If they have a problem they should tell us, but they have a job to do and I do not micromanage them in their job.

Peace

I don't physically check the book, I go over and verbally ask the scorers if everything is good and they typically say yes and give me a thumbs up. I know where to sign my name in the book and that's about it. :D

By rule the R verifies the SCORE at the end of each half. Nothing else is checked. Not fouls, not time-outs, not who has played, etc.

How do I verify the score? I ask the people keeping the books at the table if what they have matches what is up on the scoreboard before I depart for halftime and I do the same somewhere in the last two minutes during a close ball game.

In the end, all of this comes down to everyone doing their jobs and in a perfect world doing them without error.
The problem is that errors do occur and as an official, particularly if one is the R, it is important to know how to proceed when an error occurs.

This is something which separates officials from each other. How they proceed in unclear or problem situations. Your top guys handle them well and to the satisfaction of others. Lesser officials will not worry too much about it or point the finger at someone else.
I try to have someone on the crew with definite knowledge. If I can obtain that knowledge and fix the situation, I will. My best defense to such problems is to be prepared.

I equate this to any other knowledge of the game. You might have general knowledge, but what are you going to say if one of the participants do not believe you or buy your knowledge? I know I can look at different books and figure out a mistake, just like we do with any other kind of mistake. But if it is all in my head that is a harder sell IMO to others. It is not about blaming, teams school at the very least keep track of their own timeout situations (at least they do here). Heck they better keep track of their fouls and other important information. But if you the officiating crew is the main line of defense, I think that could cause more problems. We already get accused of having an agenda and now I have to not go by the people that are paid to also do a job.

Peace

Do you keep the foul counts on the players, team fouls, and the score too? I've had far more situations where those were in dispute than the number of timeouts.

For the score, I look at the board after each basket is made to see that the points go up. On several occasions I've caught the points being placed on the wrong side.

For team fouls, I will not administer a throw-in or FT until the team foul has been posted on the board.

So for those two things, I have a very good idea that they are correct throughout the game.

I do the something similar with the AP arrow. Following each AP throw-in I look to ensure that it has been switched. If not, I hold up the game at the next stoppage and have it switched.

For individual fouls the best that I can do is to mentally track those for the top players. It is just an awareness thing, but I don't find it hard to know that the 6-11 guy has three fouls or that the stud forward or point guard has four. Of course, it helps if you have a PA announcer or if the scoreboard operator flashes the individual fouls on the board.

I make an effort, but I also know that at some point there is only so much you can do.

I keep track by the scorers book at the table. What ever they say is what it is. Now when I am at tournaments, and each team has their own book and there is one at the table and we have a problem, I would bring both books to the table. If both the team books are different than the one at the table, then we can fix something. If not, it's what the table says.

I don't know anybody who does this. Simply ask, Is the score right?

I try to check if the official book, the visiting book, and the scoreboard all matches at the end of the quarters and at halftime. If there has been a lot of fouls during the first half, I will also have the books compare fouls to make sure everybody is on the same page as well. I have never checked on timeouts.

But on this issue of book and time keepers, I work with a lot of young, rookie officials (they like to team them up with the Old Man) and while they may be well versed on critical elements of the game such as proper headband colors, they don't have a clue about taking a few minutes prior to the game and checking with the table.

This is critical at the lower levels, where often, the scorekeepers and timers are not well trained ... or trained at all. Most rookie timers have no idea regarding the concept of "chopping" time. Twice I have had guys turn off the clock after every made basket.

Last week, somebody asked if it was proper to designated the visiting book as official. If the home book doesn't seem competent and the visiting book obviously is, I just ask if anybody minds if we switch. Never had an issue.

I also don't have a problem tossing somebody at the table if they are not doing their jobs. I figure if the kids are giving their best efforts, the officials are giving their best efforts, than the table can give their best efforts, too.

So, and correct me if I'm wrong, it appears we have a far more casual environment than your typical league game. If so, that makes this whole story very easy to believe.

I've run into this situation once, Y league, my rookie year. Coach A requests and is granted a time out. Coach B claims that time out is excessive. I go to the table, and the scorekeeper tells me, "I think it is too many." However, since the scorekeeper didn't keep a written log, I penalized nothing. I haven't seen this issue since.

We're taught to trust our partners. I believe that extends to the table, too. Besides, no-one blames the table when we kick a call, so no-one can blame the R and Us when there's a book error. It cuts both ways.

But they absolutely do!

If we worried about what we could get blamed for, we'd never get anything done on the court.