Please Explain This Call (Video)
 

Foul is called on White #4:

<iframe width="800" height="450" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/kZ4xcZ8Acg0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

What did the official who called it say when asked to explain? Why do you expect us to explain some other official's call? It's obvious he missed the first push by R21 that caused W4 to fall on the R25 player on the floor. It's a missed called. Officials miss calls sometimes. I see one official wearing a watch and another who appears to be 15 years-old, I would definitely expect that they would miss some calls.

Can you explain the parent who was yelling at the girl who committed the initial turnover?

No, I cannot explain why people watching the game say what they say.

What an odd question, and not very helpful.

This wrong call happened literally directly in front of the ref. The only way to miss it was with eyes closed.

I can tell you what is frustrating from a parents perspective is that most refs have zero humility, and act as if they are never ever wrong. Around here they do not answer questions.

In this particular case the woman ref comes over pronouncing that this "foul" was white #4's 5th foul and the removed her from the game. Turns out it was only her fourth foul and they corrected it a few minutes later, allowing her back in after critical moment of the game had transpired.

And, all four of her "fouls" were just as obviously suspect.

Well, sounds like you need to sign up for the next officiating class, xyrph. Clearly this league needs your obviously superior judgment and instincts. Don't just be a sideline youtube warrior - get in the ring, son.

Ok, the dude missed the push by R21 (though it didn't look like a massive one). I don't really have a huge problem calling fouls on players that jump on others recklessly trying to force a jump ball - that's what he saw. And so they momentarily got the # of fouls wrong - the table got it corrected, that's what they're there for.

The ref should answer questions from the coach and others actually involved in the game, if done so in a polite manner. The peanut gallery isn't in the game.

Is white #4 your kid? I can just smell the bias.

White #4 has an obvious block/forearm.

White #34 could've been called for a foul.

NOW we get to the actual call, where the official may have thought to himself *Well, shoot, I should've had those fouls on white but I let them go thinking she could play through it*

Few probabilities:

1) Official was looking for a reason to give it to red after swallowing his whistle. From the looks of this play and and foul count they probably let too much go. He let too much go and tried to remedy it.

2) Live, it may have looked like she was already falling and red didn't actually push her. Doesn't even look like much of a push in slow motion, though this could've easily been called offensive.

3) Watch his head, doesn't even look like he ever glances at red to replay what just happened in his head. Could've easily just missed it -- we're not perfect.

I'm not saying any of these are good excuses or the correct way to look at the play. This just isn't that big of a deal and it was a messy play. After you let the initial foul go on white #4 it was ugly.

How do you know if the official answered the COACH'S question about the play?

And what is so helpful about your video? What are you or I learning from it? The official missed the called. What are you offering in the way of advise to so that another official won't get that call wrong?

And how are you going to criticize officials if you don't know the difference between a Lead and a Trail.

If frustrating a human being's perspective to for someone to post a video of an event and then ask a whole bunch of people why someone they don't know made a decision as if we are in their brain.

So again, what was the purpose of posting this video other than to make the juvenile comment about the "Lead" official having his eyes closed. Tell us again how you are being "helpful"?

In my opinion, if this is true, I agree it's extremely frustrating. To top it off it's unprofessional and makes entire leagues mediocre. I do find it hard to believe that they never answer questions. All encompassing statements tend to have an issue with being not true.

As a general rule, I'll answer most questions. Personally, I will almost always tell a coach when I mucked up a call. There is, however, a lot of dynamics involved and game management is an art most officials don't have. Without it, you're not working 5A or even 4A around here. Or maybe even any varsity games for that matter. Really depends on association.

I don't answer parents' questions, even those who are recording the game from the stands. We do not know if the official in question answered any questions about that call, assuming the HC even questioned it. And I have a hard time believing the 15 year-old looking official would ignore questions from a coach.

My bad, I should have been more clear. I meant answering coaches' questions.

I also said "if" and meant it. ;)

Thanks for your response, Dad. You at least provide some insight that is helpful.

Regarding the block/forearm can you elaborate, please? Are you referring to what happens at approx. 7 seconds into the clip?

Is a defensive player not allowed to place their arm like that? I know it is a foul if she extends the arm and pushes on the offensive player, but if it is purely defensive I thought this was ok. When I look at that portion of the clip I see the offensive player pushing #4's arm and not the other way around. I'd like to know if this is indeed a foul in this situation committed by #4?

That question has already been answered, but your feelings were too hurt by the other statements made in this thread to pay attention.

But you expect someone here to explain why an official made a call that he made.

No. Not hurt. I am asking NOW about Dad's comment of the arm bar. Please respond if you have something helpful to say about that item, which has not been discussed at all, except for Dad's assertion.

Maybe he is genuinely looking for some insight. Fans are generally the most ignorant population in the gym and maybe he is just looking for some help understanding what a ref might see.

Yes I'm feeling glass half full today.

I don't expect anything. I was hoping that a forum of officials might provide professional insight.

The comparison to fans watching a game is absurd.

An extended arm bar is now an automatic foul on a ball handler.

A couple years ago they changed the rule from officials making the judgement on defense inhibiting the offense with hands/forearm to making it automatic.

Now an automatic foul:
1) Prolonged one hand on ball handler
2) Two hands on ball handler
3) Forearm on ball handler.
4) Lastly, which can be confusing, is the defender can hot stove touch the offense, but a second touch with either hand is an automatic foul. This doesn't mean you can touch for a second no matter what. Still a judgement call if the hot stove touch gives the defense an advantage.

When you come on this forum imposing questions and making statements that sound like fanboy talk, expect to be treated like a fanboy.

Call was missed, pure and simple. That's been acknowledged from the first response. One official is wearing a watch, another is a teenager; this isn't a Final Four crew. What the hell does he hope to accomplish other than embarrass the official who missed the call. There is no insight to be gained. He didn't come here asking about his daughter's forearm and whether it was legal. That would be a legitimate reason to post the video and would be HELPFUL and constructive conversation.

He came here for one reason, to whine about a missed call involving his daughter. I guess the whole officiating community is supposed to give him a collective apology for the injustice.

Yep.

Hello! I am asking about the arm bar.

Dad gave some good information but the part about the "extended" arm does not seem to apply in the scenario at about 7 to 8 seconds in and so I'm still unclear.

You're basically asking a three year old to act like an adult. This is in no way meant to be offensive, but I just think of them as TypicalIdiotFans and my life is much easier. Without fans, sports wouldn't be what they are and the games wouldn't be fun, at least for me. They are a major part of the event, whether you like it or not. Treating fans like they should know everything is just as ignorant as the fan screaming, "over the back!!"

I've changed basketball in my area for fans by treating them like human beings who don't have a clue what's going on behind the mind of an official. I can't put a price on how rewarding it is to have fans actually understanding the game instead of telling them to shut up because they're throwing a temper tantrum. What else can they do? They have a three year old mentality when it comes to the rules of the game and have no idea how to act. Answer a few questions here and there and it has a chain reaction.

^ Answered a few posts above

I can explain it perfectly, it is girls basketball.

We can end this topic now. ;)

Peace

You are?

In the title to the thread you ask us to "please explain this call." And your first post is about "a foul called on #4."

The foul that was called was pretty clearly a foul, imho. And, I have no problem with passing on any of the other contact I saw (just from the one clip and assuming there was no other action / calls in the game that would lead to making one of these "tighter" calls).

It is very close to a BC violation on red. I didn't go back and check the video in detail to see if it should have been a violation or not.

Hey now! Some of us less fortunate referees don't have the choice of not working girls basketball. ;)

We've had plenty of coaches and fans come here and ask questions. Believe it or not I actually know people who are fans. I even work with some them :eek:

It's not some new concept for me to talk to fans about officiating. This, however, is an officiating forum. It's an adult forum. Posting like a fanboy will get you treated as such.

His daughter was charged with a foul after falling on top of an opponent. Unfortunately calling official missed the first foul that caused his daughter to fall. Again, I ask, what is hoped to be learned from the posting of this video?

This right here is all I need to know about this person's motives:

As I said, temper tantrum. :p

Hehehe.

Good point about time and place.

Not a comment about the officials per say, it is just a raggedy play that has players falling over each other. That is all the explanation you need and the officials has to make a call. The official could have called just about anything and someone would be here wanting us to explain it to him or her.

BTW, what the hell does the official have on his wrist?

Peace

I also think the wrong official made the call here. This should have been something the C could have seen. I think the New Lead, turned Trail saw the last thing because he was straightlined. I do not blame him, we have players on top of each other and he missed the first action with all the back and forth. We even had a missed BC violation too.

A lot going on during this play.

Peace

I hate that we are in an age where people with a cheap cell phone camera and a free youtube account can film a video clip like this and post it to the internet for the intention of embarrassing an official.

The officials on this game are clearly not working high level basketball (no offense to the OP's daughter, but the OP should check his level of humility, too), and are certainly not at a level where it is fair for them to be humiliated on the internet.

Missed call? Yes. But there were probably at least 20 others in that game alone.

No comment about the main topic; this whole thread is depressing.

But! No BC violation. It was close, but we had a dribbler and the ball never went back after finally gaining FC status. The last bounce before the ball came over touched the division line which is part of the BC. Or at least it was so close that I wouldn't have been 100% to make a call, especially right after a turnover like that where I'm not in a credible position to see it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Some legit points, but there's way more good than harm. You aren't really an official unless you are on youtube with 10k+ views blowing a call. :p

After every game I go to the AD and ask if they record the game. If so, I ask if I could get a copy of it. I get at least 70% of my games on video and watch them. If it wasn't for this strategy there's no way I'd be as good as I am. There's plenty of times I watch and go think how did I screw that call up so bad. We all screw up plays, and sometimes pretty badly.

I take zero offense to knowing those schools also see me blow the call and go, "Get a load of this clown!" All part of the job, shake it off.

I agree, I don't think any good official is going to call a BC here and be happy about their call. The dribble with team control and front court status hits MAYBE BC and there's no way to be certain. Even in slow motion.

I get film from every game I work, and I break down every play. If I get on YouTube, so be it. I'm at a level where I'm comfortable with that fact and will continue to work games. but there is a level where we all begin. The people in the video look like rookies and it is not appropriate for some fan to film the game, clip one play, and post that play on the Internet and this forum looking for people to criticize and humiliate. Everyone started by working a lower level. I'm lucky that YouTube wasn't this popular when I started. We have a shortage of officials at lower levels. This is one of the reasons ... Fans at these games are typically much morse than those at the college level. Who wants to be verbally abused for two hours and humiliated on the Internet for $25?

You wont understand until you put a striped shirt on and actually try to referee. Sometimes a referee gets too close to see the whole play. sometimes the referee sees the whole play and the whistle just doesnt blow. sometimes there just not very good at it. Everybody is a great referee from the third row. If you really want to understand, go out and try it.

It may not be practical for you to actually try to referee. But what you can do, and what you should do, is take a stand against the idiot yelling at the girl bringing the ball up the floor. Parents like this ruin youth sports. It doesnt help the girl he's yelling at and im sure his own daughter doesnt think much of his yelling either.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/PaCJiSNvZgk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I think you are right, I had to slow it down to see the video. The ball looks like it is never brought back to the BC.

Peace

Word Of The Day: Hyperbole ...
 

It's tough to see the white division line on the light colored court. The guy who selected these colors should be shot.

I wonder how many see it this way -- honestly curious. Coaches want me on big games and I still do full on stupid stuff.

Thread is getting goofy, but I'll end it on a comical note:

Had a pretty good 3man JV game Thursday night. Was working a JV/Varsity double header and we had a first time 3man official for the JV game. Did everything I could to make him feel comfortable with the crew. Great pregame. Got most of the officials nerves out of the way. Everyone smiling getting ready to run out. Do captains, coaches, and books... everything looking great. I go to administer the jump ball... and... put the ball down and sprint out of the gym for a whistle. Thought I'd never make this mistake but it finally happened after eight years.

Recording went straight to the assigner. :(

Ball was tipped away by White 4 before coming into the front court, thus it never had front court status.

I don't really see a foul by White 4 before that, but there was one by White 34 before the girls went to the floor.

As for the foul in question, the official probably didn't get a good look at the forearm by Red 21. Looks like he might have been partially straight lined with Red21/White4

[QUOTE=SAJ;971893]Ball was tipped away by White 4 before coming into the front court, thus it never had front court status.

Still team control. Red dribbles it while having FC status and what we're talking about is if the ball hit the line or not. The tip is irrelevant

I don't really see a foul by White 4 before that, but there was one by White 34 before the girls went to the floor.

That's a foul on white #4. Whether you want to call it or not is up to you.

Tail-Light Guarantee ...
 

Once in thirty-five years. I can't guarantee that it won't happen again.

It Was Like A Pinball Game Out There ...
 

Good point. He got a look, but not a good look.

[QUOTE=Dad;971895]White4 puts her arm up, but I don't see any contact with it. Maybe you do.

[QUOTE=SAJ;971898]7-8 second mark you don't think there is possible contact between red21's shoulder and white4's elbow?

Exactly, to me that has the most negative impact of anything I saw in that video.

[QUOTE=Dad;971900]Not from the angle of this video. Maybe from a different angle I'd be able to make a better judgement. I do see a foul on White 34 though.

It took me four viewings to see the contact the OP was talking about. During my first three viewings I thought W4 lost her balance and fell on the red player.

As JRut said....it's girls basketball. :rolleyes:

Shouldn't have taken that long.

If you can't explain why the people watching the game say what they say then how do you expect us to explain the officials thoughts on why he called the way he did?

And without talking to the table personnel you can't blame the "woman ref" for removing W4 from the game....if the table says that's five fouls the it's on them. It's not the officials fault if the table screws up.

Thank you for the feedback.

I would like to see those other three fouls that were obviously suspect.

Obviously the refs were paid by red. Good grief. They missed a call.

Looks like he was close to being straightlined when the missed push happened. But frankly, if he misses that push, the right call is a foul on white. It happens.

It's not absurd. You may not like the comparison, but it's a natural response to being asked to explain why someone called what he did when all we get is 26 seconds. And none of us know him.

Interesting video.

Officiating is all about angles. The camera/fan has one angle;the players have their angle; the coaches have another; the officials have yet another angle.

The camera/fan angle shows a common foul on R21, "push". Therefore, Dead ball, secondary contact may be ruled incidental.

My guess (which officials should never do, but you asked for a possible explanation) appears the Trail official's angle may have not seen the push from R21 and thus only sees W4 illegally contacting R25. Just because there is a loose ball, does not allow players to contact other players illegally. Jumping on a player who has the right to a spot on the floor, if obtained legally is either a common foul or intentional foul, based on severity of contact ruled by the official.

Hopefully that helps. The next time you are enjoying the game and see something from your angle, ask yourself what angle do the officials have. We hope they "move to improve" and get the calls right.

I'm not convinced red 21 actually pushed. Was the arm out there? Yes. Was there contact, probably. I think the white 34 was already going down on top of the other player either way. I think white 34 was tripping over red 25's knee. The arm from red 21 was just incidental to what was already happening.

Could a foul have been called on 4? Sure. But I wouldn't declare it to be incorrect for the lack of a call.

[QUOTE=xyrph;971824]Foul is called on White #4:

Explanation?

Please tell me this isn't a varsity game!

With as well as this game is being played, I'm sure its hard to imagine the officials wouldn't be perfect. :rolleyes:rolleyes:
Can you explain why your coach has 23 handling the ball... ever?

Lets pick apart more of the video:

1. Marginal contact on W4 by R8 (hold).
2. Marginal contact on R21 by R4 (hit)
3. Marginal contact by W34 on R21 (hit/push)
4. Contact by R21 on W4 (push: "but she started it")
5. Look at the clock: Does anyone see those player numbers in the game during this play... are they're really only four players on the floor for the guess team?
6. That same table probably got the number of fouls wrong - you may want to check the score also or just go work the table...
7. W4 laying on top of a player is always a no-no.

Q. Is the new lead DBO from the bleachers?
C: That girl definitely needs get her own uniform and stop borrowing her dads.
C. Good push-foul mechanic by T

- #4 in white is the OP's Daughter.

- This was a pre-season jamboree/scrimmage. Might explain the lax attire of the officials.

- I thought it was just in my neck of the woods that high school girls basketball was brutal to watch.

Thanks for the info. Also might explain the rather inexperienced appearance of the young lady.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

I've seen some 1a boys team that would get wrecked by those two girls teams. Look at the score. Couldn't be all that bad. :p

There is a scrum for a loose ball, a red player secures it while on the ground, and white 4 jumps on top of her. That is a foul every day, and twice on Suday. Are you suggesting this type of action should be allowable? Would you draw the line at elbow drops? If you are suggesting that white 4 is pushed into her, I don't think so, her momentum was going that way already and for this ref to call a push on red here would be very problematic. And backcourt? Not a chance.

This sounds like a coach.

And one that doesn't win.

All right, feeling generous today and a little like Scrooge on Christmas Day.

1. There are many ways to miss the call. Straight lined, surprised, tired, frustrated. Sometimes we anticipate a certain call or pass on the initial contact and then have to get the next contact. Some refs have a hard time when the play is chaotic and processing what's a violation, what's a foul and what we can pass on.

2. I *never* interact with fans. Nothing good is going to come from that. The parents have 1 job. Encouraging cheering. That's it.

3. 4th foul / 5th foul is a table problem. If you have a strong crew, one or more may notice a discrepancy, but it's a table responsibility. This issue probably happens about 30% of the time at the JV level and has happened in each of my varsity games this year (all girls games.)

4. Sure probability make me doubt that the refs incorrectly called all 5 fouls.

Passion is a part of sports. It can also greatly color a fan's view of particular plays.

Lastly, most great officials and even very good officials do not want to work a steady diet of girls Varsity games. It may help you to realize that you are going to see errors and inconsistencies regularly.

I went to a game to watch a friend the other day and ask they started chirping at my friend I jumped in and explained how breaking the plane was not a T just a delay of game. Soon we are talking about daughters, rules, clarifications, etc. They enjoyed I was there to help the officials and learned a ton from me. And that I pointed out things these young guys could do to get better.

I agree with Dad. It is better to have a little fun and conversation. Possible growth and understanding then to just rip into them and yell at them. I think fans are frustrated they dont know how to understand things better and love a referee who will talk to them and then you have a new friend on your side helping others in the crowd enjoy the game and learn from it.

Coaches are not your friend. Fans are not your friend. Both will throw you under the bus the first chance they get.

No luck on video on the three other obviously suspect foul calls? I love to breakdown video.

Who sounds like a coach? The OP, or the post you quoted?

I hope you weren't pointing out to fans where the crew could do better.