Fashion Fun
 

OK so I'm a coach let the hostility begin.

We have had 3 games in and 3 different interpretations by the officials and although this discussion wont help in our actual games I would like some clarity on the situation.

My teams away uniforms are predominantly green. We have decided that any tights or sleeves will be black, but I don't allow "shooting sleeves" so any sleeves will be t shirt sleeves that end above the elbow.

So in our first game I have a few kids wearing black tights and black undershirts under a green jersey. Its a non official "foundation" game so the officials come over and tell me that the "undershirt" is an extension of the uniform and must be the color of our jerseys. So I quickly pull my kids off and have them take their tee shirts off. I feel like an idiot because I have clearly misunderstood the all important fashion requirements. Thinking that the change of the "sleeves" included sleeves of an undershirt. Official explains to me that sleeve implies a separate sleeve that extends below the elbow. Ok my fault I kicked it.

Game 2: Players are wearing Green jerseys, green undershirts that end above the elbow, and black tights. Officials come to me and say "hey look its early we will cut you some slack but those 3 players are illegally equipped they have green sleeves and black tights". So I'm confused. I ask about the undershirt being same color and they tell me that all under garments must be the same color. Which was my original interpretation. But now I'm just confused and my players are confused and I really have no idea how to move forward.

Game 3: We are in White playing a team wearing Red. Half of them are wearing black undershirts. Half are wearing matching red undershirts. And several are wearing Black tights/leggings. So I am not trying to cause a problem for them I just want some clarification and ask what this interpretation is. The officials tell me that those wearing black/black are ok because they match each other. Those wearing red/black are ok because Jersey/Undershirt "are considered an extension of one another". And now I am just completely confused and my players are just laughing at me because I made kinda a big deal about it before the season.

All games were against D1 teams and I assume D1(top division) officials in the same section. I am not trying to say anything negative here I am just looking for a consensus from the brain trust on what the correct interpretation should be. If it were up to me I would just tell my guys no undershirts but...

Thanks for any help you could offer!

I'm always incredulous when certified officials kick such a basic uniform rule. A shooting sleeve is not the sleeve of an undershirt, it is a separate piece of equipment. Had very good friends who were kicking this rule last season and all I could do was shake my head. Copy and paste the following to a document, print it out, and keep it with you at all your games.

Rule 3-5
ART. 3

Arm sleeves, knee sleeves, lower leg sleeves and tights are permissible:

a. Anything worn on the arm and/or leg is a sleeve, except a knee brace, and shall meet the color restrictions.

b. The sleeves/tights shall be black, white, beige or the predominant color of the jersey and the same color sleeves/tights shall be worn by teammates.

c. All sleeves/tights shall be the same solid color and must be the same color as any headband or wristband worn.

d. Meet the logo requirements in 3-6.

NOTE: In general, a brace is defined as anything that contains hinges and/or straps or an opening over the knee cap


ART. 6

Undershirts shall be a single solid color similar to the torso of the jersey and shall be hemmed and not have frayed or ragged edges. If the undershirt has sleeves, they shall be the same length. A visible manufacturer's logo/trademark/reference is not permitted on the undershirt.

Coach, unfortunately, your officials are being inconsistent (or just plain lazy) in their application of the uniform rule. There are few things worse than inconsistency with officiating as you, and your team, never know what to expect - whether it be uniforms, applications of hand-checking rules, FT violations, etc.

If you brought this up to the leadership in our Association, our Assignor would send out a nasty e-mail and it would certainly be a topic of discussion at our meeting (again) - we get it every yr.

BNR has posted the Rules Book verbiage for your use.

OK....don't have my rule book handy, but here's the basics:

Game 1: Officials were correct. t-shirts must be the same color as the jersey. T-shirts are not covered by the arm sleeve/leg sleeve/tights rule.

Game 2: Officials were incorrect - see above. Arm sleeves/leg sleeves/tights may be black, white, beige, or the predominant color of the jersey. All must be the same color for all players on the team.

Game 3: Officials were incorrect - see above.....

The first officials were correct.

A shirt is not a sleeve.

Thanks guys. That is what I assumed after re reading the rules and the changes. Unfortunately I was combining a two year old rulebook and a rules change notice and incorrectly assumed that "Sleeves" included the sleeves of an undershirt. I knew the third night was totally wrong but what can you do?

As always I appreciate what you all do. Even though it doesn't seem like it most of the time we appreciate what you all do.

Like a Doctor: Lots of Patients
 

Thanx for your patience and understanding with officials who should really know better. I used to be one of you so I know your frustration.
As hard as we try here, there's always "those" officials who, in spite of all the classes we run and email updates we send and POE's we bring to their attention and rules changes we familiarize them with, somehow just "don't get the memo". And it's truly frustrating from this end, too.
Your approach and seeming acceptance of this sad reality as you've personally encountered it is laudable.
Thanx for that!
And now, if you can, please spread the correct understanding you have of the proper application of the "Fashion Fun" rule around to all the fellow coaches you can. That will go a long way to this no longer being any sort of issue. Which is what we're aiming for, too.
Thanx again, Coach!

If I changed a few things in this post I can make it sound like there was a genocide.

Oh no, an official forgot a rule that had zero impact on the game. Oh, what a foul world we live in. Oh, woe is us, having to deal with such horrible officials.

It's An Italian Coach ...
 

Than you for caring coach, and for, at least, making an attempt to instruct your players properly. If all my local coaches would take the few minutes that you took to instruct their players, we wouldn't have as many of the fashion problems that we have.

Here are the rules in a nutshell:

Headbands, wristbands, arm sleeves, knee sleeves, lower leg sleeves, and tights, shall be the solid color black, white, beige, or the predominant color of the jersey, and the same color for each item, and all participants. Anything worn on the arm, and/or the leg (except a knee brace), is defined as a sleeve. Only a single item may be worn on the head (with no extensions), and/or on each wrist. Sweatbands must be worn below the elbow. Rubber, cloth, or elastic bands, of any color, may be used to control hair. Undershirts must be similar in color to the uniform jersey, and shall not have frayed, or ragged edges.

(Note: I would rather not discuss compression shorts. The NFHS has really muddied the water on that piece of equipment.)

In a perfect world, the following would occur immediately after the head coach passes out the uniforms:

Setting: A high school locker room. Socks, and towels, are strewn around on the floor. There's a slight smell of perspiration in the air.

Coach: Our home uniform jerseys are white. If you want to wear an undershirt at home, it must be a white undershirt. As the coach I'm telling you now, that if you want to wear headbands, wristbands, arm sleeves, knee sleeves, lower leg sleeves, or tights, I have unilaterally decided that they must be solid black. No other color choices. Period. Also, headbands can't have extensions, I don't want my players looking like the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Capiche?

Players: Yes Coach.

Coach: Our road uniform jerseys are blue. If you want to wear an undershirt on the road, it must be a blue undershirt. As the coach I'm telling you now, that if you want to wear headbands, wristbands, arm sleeves, knee sleeves, lower leg sleeves, or tights, I have unilaterally decided that they must be solid black. No other color choices. Period. Also, headbands can't have extensions. Capiche?

Players: Yes Coach.

And ... Scene.

Why Not ...
 

If indeed, the rule has zero impact on the game, and one has a choice of doing it the right way, or the wrong way, why not chose the right way? One is just as easy as the other. But only one way it right.

I agree with everything you just said. Why are you out go get me, lol.

Isn't an Either/Or . . . It's a Both/And
 

"Impact on the Game" rules . . . so-called "No Impact on the Game" rules.
Good officials can know and reasonably apply both.
Lesser officials, alas, are able to choose only one of the two. If that.

Like Sheldon Cooper, Maybe I Don't Understand Sarcasm ???
 

You're fairly new around here, and I'm having trouble understanding some of your posts. Sorry.

Gotcha, yeah, I was trying to be as sarcastic as possible. I just don't think it's that big of a deal if an officials only fault is forgetting about an undershirt not being the correct color. I enforce the rules and expect other officials to do the same, but if an assigner assigns someone who won't enforce it then it's out of my hands. If I'm on the game it'll get fixed. If I'm not on the game; I'm not going to let an undershirt ruin my enjoyment of the game.

Sarcasm should always be noted in BLUE, seriously.;)

Noted. :D

It's just a little forum humor!

Sarcasm ...
 

Somebody seriously brought this up a few years ago, but it never officially took.

Note that grunewar's post was in blue.

Get it?

My thinking is when I happen to attend a game, or see game film, of officials that allow this type of thing is what else they might be letting go by either not applying a rule or not knowing it.

Paranoia.

Officials for game 1 were correct.

I only have one question for you, coach. Are you in the Sacramento area?

Just South but same section. Was the Modesto City Tournament.

Thanks coach for sharing your experience(s). Our apologies for prior misapplications of the Rule(s) in your games. As you can possibly tell, our bark is worse than our bite. (again my idea of humor) We do however, care a great deal about this game called basketball, as you do. ;)

Now that we know you are a coach, please feel free to comment and comment often. It's always better for us officials to fully understand your point of view. Your insight can prove invaluable to us, as we hope ours will for you. That way we can communicate more effectively with each other during a game and thus deliver a better product. :)

As a good friend shared a prayer with me to say before games: "May the ball go in the basket and may the players determine the outcome of the game".

Thanks again and best of luck in your season. :D

Glad to see this has finally gained some traction! :)

Just for fun. Had another away game tonight and I asked about what was legal and what wasn't. Official said that All undershirts could be black as long as all players had black undershirts, along with the black tights. Or he said they could be same color as jerseys(green) with black tights, as long as all players were the same...

So now I have 4 different answers. :)

What's A Uniform ???
 

Now you got me started on NFHS compression short restrictions.

Compression shorts must be the predominate color of uniform, whatever the hell "uniform" means to the NFHS? Jersey? Shorts? Forget any other colors for compression shorts, there are no other options, it's limited to just one color (for that team, that night), the predominate color of the "uniform".

What's the difference between compression shorts (predominate color of uniform), and tights (solid color black, white, beige, or the predominant color of the jersey) that only go down to above the knee?

For color restrictions purposes, are they tights, or are they compression shorts?

Silly NFHS monkeys.

"It’s a breath mint!"
"It’s a candy mint!"
"Two, two, two mints in one!"

https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.Me3...=0&w=300&h=300

Had a girls game last night. Blue has 2 girls with black headbands, two with white headbands and 3 with blue pre wrap. White had 2 girls with Skyler Diggins black head bands. I just don't get why it is so hard for them to understand.

I would spend more time worrying about the shot clock or back court rules. ;)

Because it isn't enforced consistently. I know a lot of officials who are making teams who wear the "Diggins" headband simply tuck the tail part into the headband, which doesn't make them legal. Then when some of us make them remove the headbands because they're illegal, they are confused. (With good reason)

Kind of like players who think it's OK to wear metal clips in their hair with tape over the top of them. Not on my court.

'Non-compliance' as they relate to uniform/equipment policies will be a continual issue across the nation. As playing equipment evolves there will be more 'devices' that blur the distinction between "equipment" and "fashion accessories". All of which will need to be adjudicated upon to determine it's compliance. Back in the day when I played varsity hoop, no one ever wore arm sleeves (shooting sleeves) or ballerina leotards. But then again, I'm a dinosaur who used to wear those white puffy knee pads.

I just know that last week I did an 8th grade boys game we noticed during warmups that a player had on gray leotards when all other teammates were wearing black ones. My partner--who was more senior than I said that "since this is just 8th grade I'm not going to call them out on the color violation". I then replied to him, "well I think we should notify coach of this player's uniform non-compliance". He begrudgingly said "well, OK, if 'you' want to you can go tell the coach about it". This set us off on a sideways tone for the game because I know he viewed me as not wanting to follow his lead--I could sense that he was a bit miffed by my assertion. But, I thought of the bigger picture: somewhere in those stands there could be my Association evaluator --it could go downhill fast from there if he saw me kicking a rule, and then I attempt to rationalize it by saying "well, my partner said it was just 8th grade and not varsity so we let them play".
In the end, I told coach, and he had the player just take off the gray leotards.

A Catharsis ...
 

There's nothing to see here folks. It's just a crazy referee venting. Move along. Keep moving.

Or, Maybe The Players Are Trying To Get Away With Something ...
 

Maybe because the coaches don't tell their players the equipment rules (maybe because the coaches don't know the equipment rules, or don't fully understand the equipment rules).

And then, of course, there's the inconsistent enforcement issue, which has already been discussed above, and we all know who to blame for that.

"We have met the enemy and he is us." (Pogo, Walt Kelly, 1971)

Read the whole thread and you might get why some coaches "don't understand"

One of the best posts written on this forum in years. :)

Our association made this adaptation (that I wasn't aware of until last night):
http://ighsau.org/wp-content/uploads...Adaptation.pdf

NFHS Basketball Rule 3-5 Team Member’s Equipment, Apparel
Modify Rule 3-5-3c to the following:
All sleeves/tights shall be the same solid color.
Modify Rule 3-5-4 to the following:
a. Anything worn in the hair (including headbands as shown in Figure “C” below) must be soft and
unadorned but may be any color or multi-colored and do not have to match for all teammates. The 2-inch
maximum width provision for headbands will be waived, and headbands with extensions as shown in
Figure “A” below will be permitted.
b. Protective soft headgear as shown in Figure “B” below will be permitted provided the headgear is not
abrasive, hard, or dangerous to any other player and which is attached in such a way it is highly unlikely it
will come off during play.
c. Bobby pins 2” or less will be allowed.
d. Wristbands may be any color or multi-colored and do not have to match for all teammates, but must be
made of moisture-absorbing material.
e. Silicone and rubber bracelets, rubber bands, bandanas, etc., are illegal as they are not moisture-absorbing
or appropriate for the game of basketball.
NFHS Basketball Rule 3-6 Logo/Trademark/Reference
Modify Rule 3-6-1 to the following:
One visible manufacturer’s logo/trademark/reference or school logo/mascot is permitted on the compression shorts,
arm and leg compression sleeves, and wristbands. Multiple manufacturer’s logos/trademarks/references and/or
school logos/mascots are permitted on the headbands as shown in Figures “D” and “E” below.

So now..... rather than the simple "everything the same for everybody," rule, it's headbands can be different, the ninja turtles are okay. Here's the annoying part-- 3-5-3c All sleeves/tights shall be the same solid color. But wristbands can be multi colored and different colors for everybody, unless I'm reading it wrong.

I'm frustrated with our association's decision to make these changes.

Why do these exceptions only apply to girls basketball??

And with a bunch of MEN interpreting the 2" Bobby pin restriction, you could end up with some rather LARGE 2" Bobby pins. [emoji3]

Good question. I'm really tempted to launch a passive-aggressive protest and not enforce any equipment rules (other than the hard materials), and tell the coaches they can email the association with their complaints.

Because girls and boys are governed separately in Iowa. And apparently in a really weird way.

Ahhh, yes, do they still start a girls basketball game with a coin flip there in Iowa?


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We used to. Now we jump 'em.

And the church said: AMEN

Last night, I was U1, and during warm-ups, 2 players had black headbands, and one had white. I told the R that I would talk to them. When I talked to the girl with the white headband, she said she would talk to her teammates.
She came back, and said that one of the girls would take off her black headband, and the other would find a white headband - the girl I talked to was a team captain, and a senior.
Momentarily, I saw a girl helping tie a white headband, with 7 to 8 inch tails, for the girl who had removed the black headband. When I told them that the tails were not allowed, they asked whether they could just tuck them in. I explained that that wouldn't work, and they complied.
Then, they asked me why, and I told them that the HS Assn wants the emphasis to be on the team and not on a player for their unique way of dressing. And I said that, as officials, we are evaluated, and that I needed their help so an evaluator wouldn't eat me alive for not following the rules. They seemed quite willing to help me with that aspect.

It's girls' b-ball. And the fashion rules' responses all soooo predictable. . .

Time for your association to elect new leadership.

I knew the tails weren't legal but reading through I can't see where it specifies that. Any help would be appreciated.


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Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles ...
 

3-5-4-B: Headband ... must be a circular design without extensions.

https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.M00...=0&w=300&h=300

https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.M41...=0&w=300&h=300

Watched TV highlights tonight, one of our veteran crews allowed one white tight, another kid wearing a black tight. Its disappointing because we have many other officials who are emulating their behavior.

Went to a big local rivalry game the other day, crew let illegal undershirts go. Sucks that I have the team later this season and will have to fix their mistake. And I look like the bad guy.

I had a BV tournament DH tonight involving 3 private schools and 1 public school.

I had the public school the previous night and they corrected a mismatched headband on their own before we had to say anything. Two of the private schools tonight had no equipment issues. The 3rd private school, a home school organization, had mismatched tights and headbands, and an illegal t-shirt. We informed them of each of the infractions and they took care of them. Didn't feel like the bad guy and we didn't get any flack.

There is a private school up in Richmond that holds a pretty history Christmas tournament every year. The first year I worked it the host AD told us not to worry if the teams have any violations concerning the colors of headbands, tights, etc.

I Feel Your Pain ...
 

I can almost understand some confusion regarding headbands, wristbands, sleeves, and tights, with multiple color options legal for that team that night (solid color black, white, beige, or the predominant color of the jersey). And, of course, I myself am really confused about compression shorts color options (what's a uniform?). Rules regarding these equipment colors have changed a lot over the past few years (in response to changing fashion issues (see Allan Iverson sleeves)), making it difficult for some officials to get a handle on the rules, especially when they really don't want to enforce the rules to begin with because it doesn't involve "the game".

But the undershirt color rule (The Patrick Ewing Rule) has been around, unchanged, for several years. Undershirts must be similar in color to the uniform jersey. Period. And since all team members have the same color jersey on that night, we don't have to worry about the mandate regarding the same color for each item, and all participants (it's already taken care of). With undershirts it's never about same color for each item, and all participants. It's because the undershirts are the wrong (illegal) color. The only legal color undershirt for the home team will always be white. Always. No other options. Period. And the only legal color undershirt for the visiting team will always be the color of their uniform jersey that night (in the case of multiple color road jerseys (see NBA)). Always. No other options. Period.

The only possible problem with enforcing the undershirt rule would involve teams wearing warm up apparel that would hide the undershirt color until the players remove the apparel for the start of the game, or to come off the bench as a substitute. But that's easy to deal with (except maybe to have the player remove the undershirt away for the vicinity of the bench, but that's for another thread).

And for those who believe that the undershirt color has nothing to do with "the game"; I've worked many multiple team, intersquad, preseason scrimmages over the years where the players wear reversible scrimmage vests and we've decided not to enforce the undershirt color rule. When you've got a bunch of players all trying to get a rebound, some wearing a white jersey over a white undershirt, some wearing a white jersey over a blue undershirt, some wearing a blue jersey over a white undershirt, and some wearing a blue jersey over a blue undershirt, it makes the official's job a little easier if they're all wearing legal color undershirts.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Now, could somebody please help me get down from this soapbox? It's kind of high up here, and I'm getting a little dizzy.

Who's The Grand Poobah ???
 

The athletic director. Not your local, or state interpreter (clinician)? Not your assignment commissioner? Not the state high school interscholastic sports governing body (I realize that the tournament host is a private school)?

BadNewsRef: How did you respond to the athletic director (assuming you were the referee)? And I realize that tournament host being a private school could make this a difficult decision.

I wasn't the R, but I believe we were all like "ok, if that's what he wants". They are not regulated by the VHSL (our HS state governing board). He's signing the checks to our association.

And this conversation occurred AFTER we had went to a couple of players to rectify violations; neither of the teams were the host school. A coach is the one who told us the AD said not to worry about it. The AD then came to us and affirmed what the coach told us.

Who Am I To Judge (Pope Francis, July 29, 2013) ???
 

Wasn't a problem for us. Gave it no second thought after the AD cleared it.

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So you are saying that you sold out, kept your mouth shut, and took the $.
That is a position that some will agree with while others will frown upon, but you need to do what is best for you.

As I stated, that school and the participants were not subject to NFHS or VHSL authority. You know, like that made for TV high school you see on ESPNU. There are no repercussions if they decide to set aside some equipment rules.

Whose Basketball Is It ???
 

I get it, but I would have still preferred to get an advance heads up from my local, or state interpreter (clinician), or my assignment commissioner. Even without the advance notice, I would have still done the same as BadNewsRef, maybe with an email to my assignment commissioner after the game detailing the odd rule base that we were asked to play under.

Why? What's the point?

I watched my kid play a bunch of youth games with made up rules this weekend. If the game isn't under the jurisdiction of the HS governing body and there's no safety factors involved, who cares?

He's A Hands On Kind Of Guy ...
 

Because my assignment commissioner wants to know about anything "odd" at the site. No coaching box marked. No black and white jersey for scorer. No head coach at coaches/captains pregame conference. Official wearing wrong board jacket. Ejections, and flagrant fouls (obviously). No showers available. No hot water in showers. No secure changing area.

Prep school games, assigned by our assignment commissioner, are not under the jurisdiction of the Connecticut high school governing body, but he wants us to file an Ejection Report with him even though no state, league, or conference body wants one reported.

I'm pretty sure that he would also want to know if there was any departure from the "usual" rules.

When in Rome...but I'm thrilled I don't work for one assigner.