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Old Fri Dec 04, 2015, 07:29am
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Handling 2 instances of Rules error by partner

Freshman boys scrimmage.

No. 1. We are in front court, Partner is trail, pass into the post hits the post player A1 on lower leg and bounces away, still on the court. B1 picks up the loose ball. Partner *Tweet* "Kicked ball" A1.

I come to him and said I had a good look at it, it wasn't intentional, in fact the leg wasn't moving, (but the post player was set up pretty wide legged.). He said it's a violation, I said no, it's not.

We gave the ball back to A for a throw in on the endline. Correctly administered?


No. 2. Partner is administering throw in sideline on front court side of division line. A1 releases the throw in, it bounces in front court and is caught in the back court by A2. Partner whistles a back court violation. He tells the coaches the ball can't first touch in the front court. I'm 99% sure he has it wrong, but I let it go. Ideas on what I should have done?
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Old Fri Dec 04, 2015, 08:37am
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1) No. It was an inadvertent whistle, but B already had the ball. Give the ball to B.

2) Become 100% sure, then correct him. If you're only 99% sure, the best you can do is say "let's look this up after the game to be sure we got it right."
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Old Fri Dec 04, 2015, 09:28am
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Old Fri Dec 04, 2015, 09:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
1) No. It was an inadvertent whistle, but B already had the ball. Give the ball to B.

2) Become 100% sure, then correct him. If you're only 99% sure, the best you can do is say "let's look this up after the game to be sure we got it right."
Also, you may want to text or email your partner today and communicate how those plays should have been refereed w/ rule references.
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Old Fri Dec 04, 2015, 09:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909 View Post
Freshman boys scrimmage.

No. 1. We are in front court, Partner is trail, pass into the post hits the post player A1 on lower leg and bounces away, still on the court. B1 picks up the loose ball. Partner *Tweet* "Kicked ball" A1.

I come to him and said I had a good look at it, it wasn't intentional, in fact the leg wasn't moving, (but the post player was set up pretty wide legged.). He said it's a violation, I said no, it's not.

We gave the ball back to A for a throw in on the endline. Correctly administered?


No. 2. Partner is administering throw in sideline on front court side of division line. A1 releases the throw in, it bounces in front court and is caught in the back court by A2. Partner whistles a back court violation. He tells the coaches the ball can't first touch in the front court. I'm 99% sure he has it wrong, but I let it go. Ideas on what I should have done?
I'm really curious, you've been officiating for several years, what's the level of experience of your partner? And, who was the R - (apparently, this was in a 2-person crew ?)
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Old Fri Dec 04, 2015, 09:54am
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Looks like you have a couple of things you can add to your pre-game conference

Just curious...what did you say to get him to change his call in the first instance (or was is simply the information you provided)?
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Old Fri Dec 04, 2015, 10:12am
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In #1 why did A get the ball back. They may or may not have kicked the ball, but regardless, B1 was in possession of the ball when the whistle blew.

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Old Fri Dec 04, 2015, 10:13am
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Originally Posted by BatteryPowered View Post
Looks like you have a couple of things you can add to your pre-game conference

Just curious...what did you say to get him to change his call in the first instance (or was is simply the information you provided)?
I went to him and said it had to be intentional to be a violation. I said partner, I am 100% on this, I will take the heat if I'm wrong, he said OK.

But as noted above we kicked who was given the throw in after the inadvertent whistle.
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Old Fri Dec 04, 2015, 10:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909 View Post
I went to him and said it had to be intentional to be a violation. I said partner, I am 100% on this, I will take the heat if I'm wrong, he said OK.

But as noted above we kicked who was given the throw in after the inadvertent whistle.
This tells me he's teachable. An email to him might be helpful with the backcourt rule.

The sad part is, if you only read the rule itself, he is right. They've really jacked up the rules on TC.
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Old Fri Dec 04, 2015, 11:00am
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Originally Posted by Rob1968 View Post
I'm really curious, you've been officiating for several years, what's the level of experience of your partner? And, who was the R - (apparently, this was in a 2-person crew ?)
No R. Scrimmage. He was late to the game so no pre-game. Pre-Games are often not done at this level unfortunately.
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Old Fri Dec 04, 2015, 11:26am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909 View Post
Freshman boys scrimmage.

No. 1. We are in front court, Partner is trail, pass into the post hits the post player A1 on lower leg and bounces away, still on the court. B1 picks up the loose ball. Partner *Tweet* "Kicked ball" A1.

I come to him and said I had a good look at it, it wasn't intentional, in fact the leg wasn't moving, (but the post player was set up pretty wide legged.). He said it's a violation, I said no, it's not.

We gave the ball back to A for a throw in on the endline. Correctly administered?


No. 2. Partner is administering throw in sideline on front court side of division line. A1 releases the throw in, it bounces in front court and is caught in the back court by A2. Partner whistles a back court violation. He tells the coaches the ball can't first touch in the front court. I'm 99% sure he has it wrong, but I let it go. Ideas on what I should have done?
I wouldn't have bothered. 99% usually means 20% and kick balls are difficult for new guys who go *well I saw it hit the foot and have no clue if it was intentional* WHISTLE

If you really think the guy doesn't know the rule there is no reason to be a jerk about it. Just say, hey, this is what I saw and this is what I understand from the rule. Newer guys will learn from discussing a certain play. They will retain about 1% of this is wrong, that is wrong, don't do this, do that, etc.

With newer officials I'm just happy they remember to get a whistle and a strong arm up. If these are the only two wrong calls then I've giving the guy props for a job well done. I supposed it depends on the association, but calling violations on a play right in front of another official screams noobie.
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Old Fri Dec 04, 2015, 11:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909 View Post
Freshman boys scrimmage.

No. 1. We are in front court, Partner is trail, pass into the post hits the post player A1 on lower leg and bounces away, still on the court. B1 picks up the loose ball. Partner *Tweet* "Kicked ball" A1.

I come to him and said I had a good look at it, it wasn't intentional, in fact the leg wasn't moving, (but the post player was set up pretty wide legged.). He said it's a violation, I said no, it's not.

We gave the ball back to A for a throw in on the endline. Correctly administered?


No. 2. Partner is administering throw in sideline on front court side of division line. A1 releases the throw in, it bounces in front court and is caught in the back court by A2. Partner whistles a back court violation. He tells the coaches the ball can't first touch in the front court. I'm 99% sure he has it wrong, but I let it go. Ideas on what I should have done?
So in the first one, a couple things. First off, when did he blow the whistle? Unless that whistle was super late, B1 likely did not yet have control of the ball, which means team A still had TC, so it should go back to them.

But the bigger issue I have is the reason to go to him it all. Let's say a player has the ball and makes a move to the basket, and your partner calls travel, but you are 100% sure the play was legal. Are you going to correct him then? I think I would use caution having much discussion if any on judgement calls, and I realize that this ended up being a knowledge-of-the-rule-issue, but you likely didn't know that initially. To me this is a play that I trust my partner on at the time, but then we certainly have a conversation about it at the half.

In the 2nd one, Bob said it right, be 100% sure, and you're good to go. I think the 2nd call is more crucial to the game to get right, as it is a clear misapplication of the rule, whereas the 1st scenario could be deemed a judgement call.

Last edited by frezer11; Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 11:48am.
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Old Fri Dec 04, 2015, 11:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909 View Post
Freshman boys scrimmage.

No. 1. We are in front court, Partner is trail, pass into the post hits the post player A1 on lower leg and bounces away, still on the court. B1 picks up the loose ball. Partner *Tweet* "Kicked ball" A1.

I come to him and said I had a good look at it, it wasn't intentional, in fact the leg wasn't moving, (but the post player was set up pretty wide legged.). He said it's a violation, I said no, it's not.

We gave the ball back to A for a throw in on the endline. Correctly administered?


No. 2. Partner is administering throw in sideline on front court side of division line. A1 releases the throw in, it bounces in front court and is caught in the back court by A2. Partner whistles a back court violation. He tells the coaches the ball can't first touch in the front court. I'm 99% sure he has it wrong, but I let it go. Ideas on what I should have done?
Thank you for sharing, these situations are frustrating. If I may, lets start at the beginning; No one cares about you, but the other official(s) on the court. No matter what, you are a TEAM, however difficult that may be.

Pregame meetings are critical. Find a way to get “something” discussed, even if you have to be a few minutes late to the court. I understand he was late; depending on where he/she joins you; on court, ask coaches to please give you a few minutes; in the locker room, apologies to coaches for tardiness, “we needed to handle some items before the game”.

During the game, discuss situations close enough to each other that no one else can discern what you are saying. Give NO Non-verbal’s indicating your reactions. Act completely professional! Only come together when you have 110% knowledge or need 110% knowledge. Don’t guess! It only makes it worse. Share that knowledge with the ruling official (do not demand) and let them make the decision to accept your knowledge and change the call or not. Then simply move on. Your partner will have to answer to the coaches on their calls. (If a coach approaches you, refer to my earlier post on “What to say to coaches”). Ironically, this is a part of my Pregame meeting.

When you both get back in the locker room, ask to review the situations. Ask, not demand, your partner to explain what they saw. Afterwards, you can suggest what you saw and if you cannot quote the rule, offer to research it in the rulebook and get back to him. No one likes a know-it-all. Be humble.

If all else fails, offer your partner your whistle and suggest you would be happy to watch the game from the stands. (My idea of humor; kind of)

Hopefully this helps.
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Old Fri Dec 04, 2015, 12:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909 View Post
Freshman boys scrimmage.

No. 1. We are in front court, Partner is trail, pass into the post hits the post player A1 on lower leg and bounces away, still on the court. B1 picks up the loose ball. Partner *Tweet* "Kicked ball" A1.

I come to him and said I had a good look at it, it wasn't intentional, in fact the leg wasn't moving, (but the post player was set up pretty wide legged.). He said it's a violation, I said no, it's not.

We gave the ball back to A for a throw in on the endline. Correctly administered?


No. 2. Partner is administering throw in sideline on front court side of division line. A1 releases the throw in, it bounces in front court and is caught in the back court by A2. Partner whistles a back court violation. He tells the coaches the ball can't first touch in the front court. I'm 99% sure he has it wrong, but I let it go. Ideas on what I should have done?
Sit. 1 Why would the offense kick the ball? You never said whose area it was, and I'd have a tough time coming to my partner to 'fix' a kicked ball violation. What information did you bring to him other than you think he kicked the call? Is that really information we are supposed to bring?

Not sure how A got the ball back when A kicked the ball and B recovered after, but as others said it depends on the timing of the whistle.


Sit. 2. This is more the situation to go to your partner because it's less of a judgement play, and more a rules knowledge failure by your partner. Wether or not I would go to my partner depends on how well I know him. If he wants to screw rules all night then I'm not going to bail him out.

After the game I'm not talking about one of his plays unless he brings it up. I might ask if there were any plays he had for me but that's it. I'm definitely talking to the assignor and definitely not emailing him unless we did have a friendly discussion and he wants to learn.
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Old Fri Dec 04, 2015, 12:33pm
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Originally Posted by Gutierrez7 View Post
Thank you for sharing, these situations are frustrating. If I may, lets start at the beginning; No one cares about you, but the other official(s) on the court. No matter what, you are a TEAM, however difficult that may be.

Pregame meetings are critical. Find a way to get “something” discussed, even if you have to be a few minutes late to the court. I understand he was late; depending on where he/she joins you; on court, ask coaches to please give you a few minutes; in the locker room, apologies to coaches for tardiness, “we needed to handle some items before the game”.

During the game, discuss situations close enough to each other that no one else can discern what you are saying. Give NO Non-verbal’s indicating your reactions. Act completely professional! Only come together when you have 110% knowledge or need 110% knowledge. Don’t guess! It only makes it worse. Share that knowledge with the ruling official (do not demand) and let them make the decision to accept your knowledge and change the call or not. Then simply move on. Your partner will have to answer to the coaches on their calls. (If a coach approaches you, refer to my earlier post on “What to say to coaches”). Ironically, this is a part of my Pregame meeting.

When you both get back in the locker room, ask to review the situations. Ask, not demand, your partner to explain what they saw. Afterwards, you can suggest what you saw and if you cannot quote the rule, offer to research it in the rulebook and get back to him. No one likes a know-it-all. Be humble.

If all else fails, offer your partner your whistle and suggest you would be happy to watch the game from the stands. (My idea of humor; kind of)

Hopefully this helps.
Way different philosophies. I got out on the court thinking everyone loves me because I make their game better.

Never be late to a game.

Asking is often insulting. I also wouldn't call anything critical. I want my partners to know I trust them and will always have their back. Doing all this goofy stuff tells them the opposite. You can't deal with new officials like you do your favorite officials to work with or vets. Give me your worst officials that you think should quit and I'll make them look good on the court. On top of that I'll make them believe they are good. It's extremely difficult to do either of these if my partner(s) don't think I have faith in them.

Have fun, blow you're whistle, and just watch the two players closest to you. I'll deal with everything else.
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