Non-Correctable Error
 

In my game today, neither my partner nor I noticed that the wrong team was awarded a designated spot throw-in. They inbounded and dribbled all the way up the court until I noticed. I know this does not fall into one of the five correctable error categories. Can this type of play still be called back when the error is realized? How late is too late?

I realize that the best answer is "don't let it happen in the first place", but what is the correct way to handle this?

Thanks!

It can be corrected up until the throw in has ended. After that, bummer.

And here's the case play for you...

until the throw in has ended.When does the throw in end? 4-42-5. I wish I knew that definition 6 year years ago.

Well...it's location in the rule book has been fairly constant for the past six years. Maybe even longer :D

And the possession arrow stays pointed toward the team that you incorrectly gave the ball to - so they get the next throw-in also.
Until the next throw-in has ended, this coach may need a hug.

Wrong.

The rules don't allow you to screw up a game THAT badly.

4.3.1?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is This Relevant ???
 

6.4.1 SITUATION D: It is Team B’s turn for the next throw-in under the alternating-
possession procedure. By mistake, Team A is given that throw-in. Team A
(a) commits a throw-in violation, or (b) releases the ball on the alternating-possession
throw-in, but before the ball is legally touched inbounds, Team A or Team
B commits a foul. RULING: Once the throw-in ends – it is too late to change anything.
In (a), the throw-in ends when Team A violates and results in a throw-in for
Team B as well as the arrow for the next alternating possession. In (b), the alternating-
possession throw-in did not end when the foul occurred. Therefore, the
alternating-possession mistake is corrected and the arrow now favors Team B; penalize the foul appropriately. (4-42-5; ; 6-4-4; 6-4-5)

So the team that mistakenly got the throwin on an alternating possession throwin will not get the next arrow?

Am I on the right track?

More simply:

6.4.1 SITUATION: It is Team B’s turn for the next throw-in under the alternating possession procedure. By mistake, Team A is given that throwin. Team A completes the throwin pass and scores. During the dead ball after the made field goal, Coach B questions the officials about the mistaken throwin, and the direction of the next arrow. Who should get that next possession arrow?

I say Team B.

Do I win a cigar?

You would say B and be correct.

Tables can spazz out and turn the arrow and still have no idea what's going on. At least one official on the floor should always have some method of keeping track. Whiffing an AP arrow happens, twice in a row is just poor officiating.

Another One Of Those When In Rome ... Issues ...
 

Our local board requires all officials to keep a spare whistle in their pocket and switch pockets at every alternating possession change, as well as at halftime. My spare is an old fashioned Acme Thunderer (with a pea).

I fully realize that is totally frowned upon by almost all other Forum members, but it works well for us, especially at Catholic middle school games where an arrow is not required at the table.

Then, of course, we can always use, "Sorry Coach, we'll make sure that you get the next two out of three alternating possession arrows". This only works under several conditions: You're a veteran official, you have a good relationship with the coach, the score isn't close, and the coach has a great sense of humor. Under any other circumstances, the best we can do is to just say, "Sorry Coach".

There used to be a comment in one of the case plays stating that if the officials mistakenly award an AP throw-in to the wrong team and cannot fix it because it becomes too late, then the officials should ensure that they give the other team the next AP throw-in and that a team should not knowingly be given two AP throw-ins in a row.

Why?

We All Depend On Nevadaref ...
 

Hey. Aren't you the "King of the Archived Case Plays"?

Get to work. Citation please.

From Esteemed Forum Members ...
 

Unprofessional. Not in mechanics manual. Not necessary. Remember it. Rely on the table.

Unprofessional - this doesn't make sense

Not in mechanics manual - doesn't mean anything. Neither is carrying an extra shoe lace, but I looked like a bad-ass when mine broke and I had it fixed in under 40 seconds.

Not necessary - Until it is.

Remember it - good joke

Rely on the table - No.

Maybe these reasons apply for NBA, Big HS/College tourneys, etc. Even then I have still done it. I'm not going to muck up a game because all three of us are looking like idiots debating whether the table just screwed up an AP arrow.

Two Out Of Three Ain't Bad (Meatloaf, 1977) ...
 

We work mostly two person games here, and when we have an arrow question (seldom), and can't figure it out using our great intellects (we almost always can), we have a saying, "two out of three (official, official, table) wins" (very seldom goes that far).

I thought that was the norm.

What does the AP arrow have to do with the OP?

And of course if we give the wrong team an AP throw-in the arrow doesn't change. The team entitled to the AP throw-in never had its throw-in end.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

+1. It is irrelevant to the opening post. Don't even know why it was brought up.

If you're screwing up a throw-in it's most likely an AP arrow issue. First time poster and asking a simple question... good possibility we should let them know what comes next.

Cute cheerleader btw ;)

It could have been after a timeout. No AP arrow implications there.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

I know the AP direction without switching a whistle from pocket to pocket, I just remember it. If I carry a spare whistle, it stays in one pocket the whole time

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

Alternating Possession Arrow ???
 

Here's why:

This incorrect statement was the impetus for a few more posts. Many of us couldn't let that slide.

The subject was broached. It had to be dealt with.

I watched a lot of Perry Mason episodes as a kid.

I said most likely. You claim you can remember AP arrow, but think not remembering who's ball it is after a timeout can happen.

Claim? It's not that difficult to do.

It is. I've met a total of one official I'm be confident could remember who's jump it was at any point during a goofy girls freshman game.

I certainly can't do it.

I wasn't questioning your ability. It was a lead in to say it's 100x more likely to forget an AP arrow than to forget who's ball it is after a time out. I mean one of the officials did have to call the thing. Haha.

I had a similar situation happen a few years back with a veteran official.
We wrap up a quick huddle before the 2nd half throw-in and myself and the other U tell the veteran R: White (Visiting team) ball.

I take the position as L and other U as C. We look up and he's giving the ball to H1, who immediately throws it into H2, who then dribbles into his back court - where we're all standing. Buzzer sounds, and C whistles (I think for over and back). R (T) realizes what happened: hits his whistle, walks mid-court and tells both coaches "My bad - I screwed up..." Coaches nod in agreement, so he back peddles and gives the ball to V1 for the throw in. I knew he botched it, but wasn't going to challenge him after he got the coaches to agree with him in the middle of the court.

What would you have done?

Enforce the violation.

In whos shoes and was it definitely an over and back? Probably an angel fixing your screw-up. :p

Once H2 catches in his front court and dribbles in his back courts - it was a back court. Sorry, I should have clarified that point.
In my shoes?

As a basic rule: I would never challenge a partner.

That is not exactly true. It is frowned upon because it looks stupid digging in your pocket constantly to know where the arrow is pointed. You should know this by game situation, just like you know other things. And it is not like people do not forget to move their silly whistle to the other pocket.

Peace

Do you know how many times I had to correct somebody that did not switch the whistle in their pocket?

Sorry, I am not going by your little whistle, I am going to go by when we last changed the arrow and probably will give you the time on the clock without looking. Again it looks stupid constantly digging in your pocket every time there is a held ball or when you change the arrow. It is a crutch.

Peace

I think at a YMCA type of level, where the table doesn't have an arrow or know how to run the clock, just about everyone in the gym wants some kind of assurance AP is being done correctly. Never in my career have I heard anything negative about switching an item in my pocket. I have however heard positive feedback.

Now if I'm doing a 5A state game then I'm probably confident the table will do a great job. In this scenario no one in the gym cares to watch me play around with my pockets and look silly. There I'll just switch gum to a different side of my mouth so no one notices. I'll do that at any level because I've always found it tacky to turn around and look at the table if I space out and forget which way we're going.

These two examples have worked for me.

You can do what you want and this is not about the ability of the table. You should be in-tune to the game that you do not need some crutch that you will screw up and you still have to know which way you set the arrow.

Again, you assume that with everything going on you are going to always change the "whistle" to the right pocket.

Peace

So, am I to understand that y'all absolutely favor the whistle in your pocket or your own recollection over the say-so of the person who is responsible for this by rule and is (hopefully) keeping up with it in the book as well as switching the arrow when appropriate? I try to observe that this is correctly done, but that's the end of it.

I have a massive ego when it comes to being on the court. I know my limits, and keeping track of the arrow in my head is in no way certain no matter how hard I try to remember. I'm way more likely to get it right in my pocket than I am in my head. 99% of the time I get it right. The other 1% I go with the table/partner/etc.

Do we officiate the same sport? I enjoy any level of the game from little guys to college, but I'm wondering the last time you did a freshman game. Sometimes there is no arrow. Even when there is, half the time you look over the girl is on her phone texting. :p

Hence the word "absolutely." You know that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when a competent grown person that you've seen at the table a hundred times tells you it's B's ball and you remember giving the ball to B last time which was 6 minutes ago, you will go with your recollection over what (s)he has written in the book?

This is not about ego, this is about being in the game. Again, I have had people not change the whistle in their pocket because they were tending to other things. So if it is the default as you suggest, it can be a mistake just like the table, the scoreboard or the official with the whistle made.

All I am saying is be into the game. Because if you use it as a default and you make a mistake, how do you solve the problem? I do not know about you, but many held balls are not things I am not paying attention to other things. And also think it looks bad to constantly be fidgeting with your pockets as if you do not have to pay attention to players or the benches during this time frame. Or even better yet, someone thinks something else about you going into your pockets all the time.

Peace

Whether some like it or not, this is seen as unprofessional (Rut spells it out pretty well) in a lot of areas.

Whether some like it or not, it is expected in some areas.

Whether some like it or not, in some areas it is dependent upon what level of game you are working.

I think it looks rookie, like wearing earrings or backpedaling.

In a HS game, I never use the whistle to keep track. It's not about confidence in the table. Rather I look at it like the officials should make sure that the arrow at the table is correct just like you would make sure that the score and/or fouls showing on the scoreboard are correct. If the score or fouls are wrong, then you should have them fixed as soon as it is practical. The same with the arrow. After the tip, check to ensure the clock started and that the arrow is correctly set and then after every held ball, check again. If it needs to be changed, tell the table to switch the arrow as you pass by.

In a youth/rec game, there is rarely even an arrow there so in that case I use a whistle in my pocket. I don't think this is an issue in rec/youth ball.

This is not an area thing for me. There are people that do this in my area. I just telling them how silly they look and I do not see a lot of big-time veterans doing this and if they did I would still wonder "why?"

Peace

Yep yep. 100000% agree. Just as it's not my job to count number of quarters for a player. We have a ton of crap to worry about. Stop looking for other things to make our responsibility.


I wish I had a cool signature

This isn't to say that I don't forget. If I do remember I have a 100% success rate, so I will go up to the table and say, "Didn't we just give ball to blue 6 minutes ago." If they respond with I'm right then I'll switch it, if not then it's theirs. Keep in mind this is only if I'm sure and I have a great relationship with tables.

@Rut&Adam

I see where you're both coming from, it's just in some scenarios I think it's a good idea. In Rut's case, yes, if an official forgets it even once then I don't think the idea works for them. At higher level ball it does look tacky.

I don't see why this is so difficult. After the opening tip, I glance at the table to ensure they have the arrow pointed the right direction. If they don't, I'll go tell them to correct it during the first dead ball.

From there, after every AP throw-in, I make sure they change the arrow properly. In this way, I always know who should get the next throw in, and I also know that the arrow is correct.

Great way to do it, but it doesn't work for everyone. I'm not going to turn my head during live ball.

And as stated several times, at lower levels there just isn't an arrow.

You say it does not work for everyone, but what happens when you do not switch the whistle properly? You default to the whistle location all the time? Or do you have to reconstruct what took place previously?

The same thing happens on a foul situation. If you knew that the scoreboard said 6 fouls and now you called what you see as 7 fouls, how do you figure out you are in the bonus or not? What do you do if the official scorer tells you that was incorrect? Do you just take their word for it or do you start asking questions?

There are a lot of things we have to at the very least be aware of and even if someone is wrong and correct. How else do you correct these situations? You have to reconstruct what you did before and be aware of and the arrow is no different.

Peace

I've always had some sort of arrow (a hand-drawn sign, a water bottle, a shoe) even in rec-league games.

(Summer might be an exception)

I only default to something in my pocket when there is no arrow at the table or on the score board. I use pocket+reconstruction. If they both aren't there I'll see if table/partner knows, but it's pretty rare. Only really happens in games with a lot of jump balls.

minus the score board and table, I've never been successful in keeping track of fouls during a game. If the count says six than the next foul is a shot or two. If the table tells me it was wrong and it should've been say 5 instead of 6 then I'm going with them.

Summer is the exception. And the very rare freshman game with a table who's goofing around on their phones.

The rule requires there to be an arrow or device for the AP at the table. If you are using a water bottle or a pencil, that is adequate if you do not have a situation.

Oh and I never use the scoreboard either as half the time I am not trying to figure out if we are giving it to the home team or the visiting team (and you are not always at the real home team's schools, like this past week).

So if you can go by what the table tells you (and they have all that information at the table BTW), why do you need a crutch?

Peace

The first two replies answered my question perfectly (the play I was asking about was not an AP throw-in). Thanks guys.

I've made it a habit to check the table after every AP situation to make sure it changes. If it doesn't, I'll address it at the first opportunity.

There is an arrow required. If nothing else, they can use a water bottle. If you're working one of those games, though, no one is going to care if you have a rubber band on your wrist or a whistle in your pocket. Do what needs to be done.

If I'm working anything MS or above, there will be an arrow of some sort.

yeah, we tend to find other things to nitpick once a question has been answered. :)

Welcome to the forum.

yes, some free insight! Thanks!

OK, I think we've hashed out the OP's question and the whole AP Arrow issue, so please allow me to derail this thread a little further.

Why is the visiting team wearing white?:D

Home teams sometimes like to show off their cool uniforms which usually aren't the white ones.

There's an exception in the NFHS rule code?

Maybe my situation isn't the norm. For a lot of summer ball there is only one person at the table. They try to get a 2nd, but it's often 2x more work for me and I gave up and just tracked everything myself.

Nope

It could be a tournament or it could be something a state does not care about to penalize as long as the teams are contrasting. I have heard of all kinds of things states do not enforce from the rules of the NF. No big deal if you ask me.

Peace

The New Gray ...
 

We have a tradition, here in Connecticut, that private prep schools (modified hybrid NFHS/NCAA rules) wear white on the road, and dark at home.

I always takes me a few minutes to figure out who is who in regard to team fouls on the scoreboard.

Team Fouls ??? What Do You Mean By Team Fouls ???
 

The Catholic middle school league that I occasionally work has a policy that the table does not keep track of the arrow. We're lucky if they keep the correct score on the scoreboard, remember to turn the clock on, and off, properly, and keep track of team fouls. Officials are required to keep track of the arrow. It's in our contract.

you need someone with backbone to rewrite your contract.

It's Like Stealing Money ...
 

We're already stealing money. $86.00 for an Catholic middle school eighth grade girl/boy doubleheader; seven minute periods; in, and out, in about two hours; all games close to home. Last season we were asked to email the scores to the league webmaster after the game. For $86.00? No problem.

Yeah, I can see that. Disregard my previous post.

Hmmmm. I guess we have a better negotiator. We get $90 for a middle school doubleheader, we have arrows at the table, and we don't have to send anyone the scores. :D:D:D:D:D:D

Perks ...
 

Eat free at the concession stands?

No More Hanging Around The Table After The Game ...
 

New Catholic middle school assigner this season. Still no arrow at the table, but we don't have to send in the scores. Also a pay increase for "junior varsity" (fifth, and sixth grade) games. $86.00 for three games (six minute periods). He must have held out for a better deal during negotiations in a smoke filled back room.

https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.M9e...=0&w=300&h=300

Uncle Moneybags ...
 

The check that I got was a mistake.

Our new fee is $105.00 for three games (six minute periods). An extra $19.00.

Now I can afford a villa in Tuscany.

If you guys are ever in central Italy, be sure to look me up.

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=OIP.M3d...0&h=124#inline

I do exactly that too.
An arrow at the table is required by rule. If you don't have one, then create one from a water bottle or towel or something.
I don't know where you officiate, but I have a hard time grasping that HS games would be conducted without the required equipment, such as a visible clock, scoreboard, arrow, nets, etc.

I think (I hope) that all of us at least have a tendency to look to be sure that the arrow is initially set right and that it is switched when it is appropriate to do so. The wild card in this is that occasionally the arrow is switched when it shouldn't have been. "Oh, I thought y'all called a jump ball." If this can be easily sorted out because it happened 30 seconds ago, I'll try to do it. But I'm not gonna use the whistle in the pocket or any other attempt to keep up with the arrow on my own in a varsity game situation. It is, by rule, the responsibility of the scorer to keep the possession arrow, and if we do have a conflict, I see nothing which gives an official the authority to overrule the arrow at the table.

You will find it in 2-11-11. This is a bookkeeping mistake as 2-11-7 requires the scorer to record the information.

I will find what in 2-11-11? I just said it's the scorekeepers job. Where is the part that makes it my job to keep up with it and/or do anything when a mistake is made?

You wanted to know where there is authority in the rules for fixing an AP arrow mistake. I'm telling you that it falls under 2-11-11 as a scoring or bookkeeping error which the R can fix anytime until the end of the game.

The R can fix? A bookkeeping error may be corrected, yes. But if the R says this is a mistake and the scorer says no it isn't........