Scrimmage not so fun
 

BV scrimmage today that ended in disaster. One team started off chippy with a T within the first 2 minutes. The player that got the T then stormed off and I didn't see him squirt water on the court on purpose, neither did my partner, otherwise he would have been done.

Then another player on the same team had received a warning from my partner and continued to say something. My partner with his back turned I see the kid mouth something to him so I ring him up. I had also told him I had enough. Both times coach was more interested in us talking to the players and him rather than T and I told him we warned the kid(s) first.

Then after the second T the coach takes him out and the kid is acting up and I tell the coach he's done for the day (rather than go through the whole second T since it was an informal scrimmage). Coach said I couldn't do that it was a scrimmage and I told him that wasn't the case.

Then another player on the court looks at me and says, "I thought we weren't letting in Syrian refugees into this country."

What do you think happened after?

A wise, since deceased, supervisor once said, "You're working for free and they're not keeping score. Don't waste time with technicals. Put the ball on the table and go to the house."

I do not think teams should play each other before the season. Just my take. It sounds like you create some other issues by doing this. But that is my two cents on the matter.

Peace

Scrimmage not so fun
 

Well, that's what scrimmages are in most of the civilized world -- teams scrimmage each other.

Well then play a real game. But I mostly hear of all these problems about how they are handled. If they are scrimmages, then why all the problems? Just an opinion after all.

Peace

I called the game walked off, blood boiling, pissed, hurt and upset. I will be filing my report with the section chairman (who happened to be the other coach in the game).

Even the fans were disgusted at the behavior of the one team, and I heard several of their fans say they were ashamed at the behavior and embarrassed as they left the gym.

Cause people are stupid......and officials are powerless when these things don't matter.

I do scrimmages....for the check and to shake off rust. And they just don't behave that way here. If they did, I'd just leave.

Not The Source Of The Problem ...
 

I've been working high school varsity intersquad scrimmages for thirty-five years, and never once considered that the extremely rare problems that I had encountered, like a player mouthing of to me, were caused because there were two different teams involved.

Players could mouth of to an official in an intrasquad scrimmage just as easily as in an intersquad scrimmage.

The last statement is very true, but at least a coach can handle it and decide what to do. When the actions between teams tend to be more contentious and they are not playing with their "friends" they environment is much more laid back. When they are competing against opponents that they do not like already, a lot more can happen. At least in a real game there is consequences. It could be just like a summer game that also has not governing body jurisdiction over the contest, but there are usually some defined standards of behavior that often are more harsh than the actual regular season games for at least the league, tournament or shootout involved.

And I am not so much worried about them mouthing off to me, but what they do with the opponent. Even during a scrimmage we do when they mouth off to me, I am much more vocal and explain to them what could happen in a real situation. But those games are so laid back that this almost never becomes the case.

Peace

Aren't you guys told to treat scrimmages just like a normal game? We've always been told to treat them the same.

No. Most of the time they are done to just play a "quarter" or a brief period of time. And as I stated, these are intrasquad scrimmages which often involve different levels like the Sophomore team playing the Varsity and we are not keeping track of any fouls or even shooting normal shots on fouls (1 for 2).

Heck on Thursday I had a scrimmage which for the very first time they ran situations where they would play a real timed game but would play like the last 4 minutes of a half or play an overtime period with set fouls already on the board. But parents are there and they are mostly trying to just showcase the new teams for the year and give parents a way to see the team before they play.

Peace

My Way Or The Highway ...
 

Good point. I'm not sure how the coach, athletic director, principal, or the Connecticut state interscholastic sports governing body, would handle a fight in an intersquad scrimmage, but I know how I, as on official, would handle it, just like it was a real game. Flagrant fouls, disqualifications, ejections of coaches (if warranted by rule), game reports to my assignment commissioner, and to the state interscholastic sports governing body. And if the coaches involved, or the site director, didn't comply with any of the penalties I imposed during the scrimmage, then I'm heading out the door, and I'll worry about my check later.

By the way, that's exactly how I would handle a fight in an intrasquad scrimmage.

Back to reality. I don't believe that I charged a technical foul in a scrimmage in thirty-five years. But there can always be a first time.

https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.Mce...=0&w=300&h=300

Here, scrimmages are always intra-squad. I've never seen one where it involves two different teams. As a result, we just don't have these issues with scrimmages.

Pretty Standard ...
 

In my little corner of Connecticut, most intersquad scrimmages are played in six periods (four varsity, two subvarsity), stop time, with the score reset to zero after each period. We don't keep track of personal, or team, fouls, and we only shoot "in the act", and "and one", free throws.

Odd tradition here, players never wear their "real" uniforms in intersquad scrimmages, they always wear T-shirts, or scrimmage vests. Officials often have to report fouls on player #0 because many players don't have numbers.

Yet Another Case Of When In Rome ...
 

Funny. In thirty five years, I've never worked an intrasquad scrimmage, all have been intersquad.

That is why I see the problem. You have to "hope" everyone complies. If we have a fight in an scrimmage with teammates, that is up to the school do decide what works and we do not have to worry about that kind of thing escalating anyway as all the individuals involved are on the same program. I will never suggest a fight could not happen with teammates, because it certainly can, but these guys a least know each other have something to gain outside of playing each others. Again, these are primarily to give teams a chance to meet the public, that is it really.

Peace

Don't Look Back ...
 

I don't have to "hope" anything. I'm in full control at the site, and I only care about how everyone complies at the site, because if they don't comply with any of my penalties in the scrimmage, then I'm out the door. I'll even call a forfeit (yes, in a scrimmage) on my way out to make it official (officially ending the contest) before I hit the highway.

It would be nice if the penalties move up the ladder (athletic director, principal, the state interscholastic sports governing body), but compliance up the ladder wouldn't be high on my priority list, although I would file the necessary paperwork.

And this could happen in either an intersquad, or an intrasquad, scrimmage.

Coach: "You can't disqualify him. We're not keeping track of fouls".

BillyMac: "He's disqualified for trying to throw a punch".

Coach: "He's gonna keep playing. It's only a scrimmage".

BillyMac: "If that's the case coach, then you're going to forfeit the contest".

Coach: "I don't care. The game doesn't count".

BillyMac (to table): "This team (pointing) forfeits. I'm outta here."

And, when I get home. I'll contact my assignment commissioner, discuss the matter, and talk about filing all the necessary paperwork.

Scene.

When I say hope, I mean you have to deal with the fallout. I do not have to write anyone or even tell the assignor anything about the scrimmage or what happened. Often these might not even involve just 2 or 3 officials and there might be officials constantly rotating into the contest to get some reps. Again, it is a very laid back event and often the coach wants the officials to talk to the team or even the parents about new rules or situations coming for the year.

You are right, problems could happen at any scrimmage. But I have never heard of anything happening in my state as I read on this board when teams are playing each other in a "scrimmage." Even in football where you cannot play another team, very little if anything happens that would raise any eyebrows.

Peace

Here we've always been instructed that any ejections during a scrimmage will be treated just the same as a regular season game. We call fouls but don't keep track either. All technical fouls on coaches or players still carry the same weight as a regular season game. All of the scrimmages here are between two teams and sometimes we even have three ways. Most of the time they play 8-10 quarters. Running clock.

Even in football teams play 1 or 2 scrimmages against another team. All rules apply, we throw flags but don't usually mark the yardage off. All rules apply to scrimmages just like regular season games. Any fights or ejections and players/coaches are subject to disciplinary action

There would be no conversation of forfeit. There would be hardly any conversation about who can play. There would also no such conversation honestly. If we had those kinds of problems, I would walk off. And I would not likely have to even have any worries by doing so if it was that contentious. Scrimmages here are just practice.

Peace

How Do You Get To Carnegie Hall ???
 

Agree. But once the scrimmage starts, it's the official who is in charge, not the coach.

Coaches are in charge at practice.

The buck has to stop somewhere.

"Too many chiefs, not enough Indians", will never work in a basketball contest.

Again, more drama than we have to deal with. There is no T to give. What are we going to T someone for being out of the coaching box? Heck we have had coaches stop the game to give instruction (just like a practice).

Even in the football example you gave, coaches are all over the field, usually right in the offensive backfield and if we have a penalty, we might not even mark it off. In some cases, there are two different units going on on the same field going from the 30s or 40s to each goal line.

Like I said, these are practices, nothing more but with officials on the field or court.

Peace

Agree. During a scrimmage here, we have full authority to eject any player or coach. We must contact director of officials and the player/coach will serve same penalty as they would in the season. If a coach is ejected in a scrimmage he must miss the first regular season game. If a player is ejected for fighting it a two game suspension.

And like I said, these are practices. The coaches are totally in charge of their practice. They decide what we do and what we do not do. We work with them to run the practice and call what we see. But then again, you are playing a game, we are running a practice. That is why we rotate officials in and out of these situations often just to get some work. Everyone is practicing.

Peace

Respect My Authority (Cartman) ...
 

Officials are in charge at a scrimmage. If coaches want to change some rules, we can often work with them (don't shoot one and ones).

But it two kids get involved with fight, and the coach convinces me not to disqualify them, and I comply with the coach, and the same two kids get in another fight (worst case scenario), with one of the kids getting seriously hurt, then my lawyer is going to make a lot of money defending me in a lawsuit.

There is absolutely no way that I'm giving up all of my authority as an official in any type of assignment, like allowing a coach to convince me to allow a disqualified player from continuing to play. It's his practice, but it's my scrimmage.

Rotating officials in, and out, of a scrimmage has nothing to do with this debate. They are all basketball officials.

Here's the reason for this debate:

We live in two different worlds. Two experienced officials who have been around the block a few times, with two completely different experiences. The famous, or infamous, "When in Rome ..." situation.

But based on my experience as a basketball player, and as a middle school basketball coach, I still maintain that the same problems can occur in an intrasquad scrimmage, as an intersquad scrimmage.

Teammates can, and will fight. Usually it involves a girl.

Opponents can, and will fight. Usually it involves some type of disrespect.

As the contest official, in my scrimmage, they're on the bench, no matter how much the coach pleads his case.

If he won't allow me to be in charge, then I'm out the door.

After all, that's why I was asked (volunteered, or assigned) to be there, to be in charge of the contest. Otherwise why ask for officials? Assistant coaches can blow whistles just like officials can.

They are not changing rules, it is their event. They can decide to have officials or not have officials. They can do whatever they wish at their event. I cannot speak for what happens here, but they can only play so many games during the year. For example the regular season does not start for the boys until next week. Anything this week is not a game or sanctioned in any way. I guess the IHSA could tell them how they run such an event, but it does not count so they do not care as along as they do not play another team. We are asked to participate and they decide to pay us and whomever we choose to show up for. Some assignors assign the officials, others have some official or coach asking guys to work the scrimmage. There is nothing to debate with them if they choose to run a single 10 minute quarter or just play on the half court.

There is nothing to disqualify, it is a practice. If a fight happens during a practice, it is up to the school and the coach to decide what conduct rules are violated. The IHSA does not give us any authority during these events. It is just like a summer game, if there is a fight the IHSA does not set the standards for the rules over the summer.

OK and all events are not treated the same when it is outside of the prescribed rules of the event.

Honestly, I am really not debating anything with you. I was just saying I am glad we do not have intersquad scrimmages and do not deal with the issues I read or have read over the years on this site that take place during scrimmages. And it appears their is a lot of questioning on this site with things that happen as people have to come here to find out what they should do in a situation that does not count. All this talk about liability and control is flat out silly to me. If a coach asks me or anyone to show up to a practice (which happens a lot during college levels), no one is treating them like a real game on any level. I do not know what your coaching has to do with this conversation. It is clear what you might do and others might do, might not apply to every place. I am sure even some of the things you claim you find so important are not as important in other areas.

I also did not say that there cannot ever be problems in a in-team scrimmage. But I have yet in all my years in both football and basketball ever heard of the problems or issues I read on this site. Never had to throw anyone out or have a fight. Even when we do our job and call every foul and every penalty that occurs, the coach is right there to correct the situation. I have more issues in 7 on 7 or summer leagues where they are competing with another team and their is some "skin" in the game for the participants. There is no "skin" in the game during a scrimmage (here) because everyone knows what the other team is running on offense or defensive sets and coaches certainly do not want to get anyone hurt for when it starts for year. You guys just do it differently and I am glad I do not have to deal with that so I have to decide if someone is getting a flagrant foul or not.

The girls started on Monday and the boys start this coming Monday. Most games are tournaments and multiple games in a week so they are worried about competing against other teams, not trying to kill each other when most teams will play 4 or 5 games next week.

Peace

What if it is the girl's team? ;)

Yes, and why I am glad we do not have to worry about this and ask, "What can we do.....????"

Again, no such debate to have. The coach is running the event. We tell them what we would do normally and they decide what they would do. What are the losing, 4 extra minutes of running clock?

Fine, but if it was real you would have that discussion now would you?

We are volunteering. We can always reject a scrimmage by pretty much anyone. And if we are not paid, I know officials that refuse. Most of the time we are working at a place that is close to home or it is not worth our while.

Peace

Respect ...
 

If I'm officiating a scrimmage, and a player tells me to, "Go f... myself.", and I charge him with a flagrant foul, and sit him on the bench, and the coach tells me that the kid needs to play to get ready for the season ... If the coach doesn't back me, and the kid plays, I've lost all respect that I may have gained as an official.

I can't punch the player in the face. I can't swear back at him. The only tool in my belt is to sit him on the bench, and if the coach wants to take that tool away, then I'm hitting the pavement.

Fights. Swearing. In my opinion, these can happen in both intrasquad, and intersquad, scrimmages. Either way, I'm handling it the same way, by the book.

I hope the player gets suspended from school. jackass

There always is some loser coach who passes on that loser attitude to his players. Scrimmage...:(

that's generally how they want us to officiate the play, but not the behavior. Rich is right, when I'm working for free and the points don't matter, it's different. Just give the coach a chance to shut down the chatter (either from his bench or the players), then calmly walk away and file a report.

Guardians Of The Game ...
 

That sounds a little strong to me.

What I don't want to happen:

The next day, in Mrs. McGillicuddy's algebra class.

Player: Hey. Remember that idiot referee, BillyMac, who called that player control foul on me in the big game last season? Well, he refereed our scrimmage last night and he called the same thing on me again. This time, I told him to go f... himself. And you know what, he tried to throw me out of the game, but Coach told him to leave me in the game because it was only a scrimmage. I played the rest of the scrimmage, scored 37 points,, and BillyMac couldn't do anything about it. Sure, Coach made me run five suicides after the scrimmage, but it was worth it to see the look on BillyMac's face as I played the rest of the game. Now, did you answer square root of two for the fifth homework question?

Scene.

If you are having those kinds of issues during a scrimmage, there are some issues at that school or that scrimmage.

They could but as I said before, they don't. Very uneventful in every case. If there was that kind of issue, I would have heard people talking about it. They don't because there is nothing to talk about.

Peace

Knock On Wood ...
 

I'm not.

But the original poster had some issues.

Then another player on the court looks at me and says, "I thought we weren't letting in Syrian refugees into this country."


For saying that, yes absolutely he should be suspended. Kids say and do stupid things and you(the schools) want to make sure they know it's wrong.

When you have a situation that involves a squad only scrimmage, call me and let me know when that happens. Never seen it happen. But I read these threads every year and someone is complaining or commenting on a situation that took plays when teams play each other as to be expected in any competition.

Peace

Wrong on so many fronts! Players, coaches, school administrators.

What happened to high school sports as an extension of the educational experience.

Well, they can always play the scrimmage without officials on the play ground. Wonder how they will enjoy that outcome?

Wish both teams good luck with the season, because every official working their games will be advised as to what transpired during a simple/tragic scrimmage. Short leash? How about no leash!

Faith And Begorrah ...
 

Very cool.