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-   -   2015-16 IAABO Refresher Exam Question #22 ... (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/100325-2015-16-iaabo-refresher-exam-question-22-a.html)

Camron Rust Tue Nov 10, 2015 02:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 969435)
I'll consult my previous rules and case books for the exact year the dubious case play appeared.

Meanwhile, I will disagree with your defense of the ruling in that Case Play. Let me put forth my understanding of how this should work. Since we agree with the premise that a team being entitled to a throw-in or FT constitutes team possession for CE purposes, this should make sense to you.

At the time of the error, which is incorrectly permitting the ball to remain live following the first FT, Team A is entitled to another FT. That means that when Team B rebounds the miss, team possession has now switched from Team A (entitled to FT) to Team B (grabbed the rebound). Therefore, the POI should be used to resume and Team B should be awarded a throw-in near the division line.
I agree with Nevada's conclusion and thinking. It should have been A's ball for the FT, but the error lead to B getting the ball. That is a change of possession.

Rob1968 Tue Nov 10, 2015 06:29pm
Is not the POI, the moment in play, at which the error is discovered/acknowledged, rather than the error itself? Therefore, in the case of a merited free throw that was not awarded, but now must be awarded, the POI is subsequent to that action, and requires/allows that the free throw be shot w/o players along the lane, and the time from when the error occurred to the moment the error was discovered, is not to be restored. Thus, play will resume at the POI, which is the awarded throw-in.
This seems to be the thought process of the Rules/Case play author(s).

bob jenkins Tue Nov 10, 2015 09:13pm
I'm a little foggy on this, but I don't think POI comes into play on CEs. There is "the spot where play was stopped to correct the error" (or some such words), but that's not necessarily POI (as defined). Maybe I'm just too tired.

BigCat Tue Nov 10, 2015 09:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 969522)
I'm a little foggy on this, but I don't think POI comes into play on CEs. There is "the spot where play was stopped to correct the error" (or some such words), but that's not necessarily POI (as defined). Maybe I'm just too tired.
The rule does say that if an error is corrected, play shall be resumed from the POI to rectify the error unless it involves awarding a merited FT and there has been no change in team possession since the error was made....

Bob, do you know how long that first case play has been in the case book? thx

Nevadaref Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 969522)
I'm a little foggy on this, but I don't think POI comes into play on CEs. There is "the spot where play was stopped to correct the error" (or some such words), but that's not necessarily POI (as defined). Maybe I'm just too tired.
The language was changed when the NFHS adopted the POI rule and added its definition in Rule 4. That was about ten years ago.
Before that the choice of words was not referring to the definition of POI, but merely normal English language.

2004-05 wording:
". . . If an error is corrected, play shall be resumed from the point at which it was interrupted to rectify the error, unless it involves awarding a merited free throw(s) and there has been no change of team possession since the error was made, in which case play shall resume as after any free-throw attempt(s)."

2007-08 wording:
". . . If an error is corrected, play shall be resumed from the point of
interruption to rectify the error, unless it involves awarding a merited free
throw(s) and there has been no change of team possession since the error was
made, in which case play shall resume as after any free-throw attempt(s)."

bob jenkins Wed Nov 11, 2015 08:47am
Thank you both for the correction.

BigCat Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:48am
I'm giving myself a headache. Let me ask anybody this…

The correctable error rule says we go to the POI unless it involves awarding a merited FT and there has been no change of team possession since the error. if no change of team possession then resume it like any other FT attempt.

The case play 2.10.1A, we all know, says team B securing the rebound and passing to a teammate constitutes no change in team possession. You go back and shoot the free throw with lane spaces occupied.

Let's say the play goes further and team A fouls team B after the teammate catches the pass. lets say team B is in the bonus. so in this example the ball is not going to go to team A. (they are not entitled to throw in or FT). The ball is going to stay with team B. Has there been a "change of team possession." If there hasn't, I'm not supposed to go to the POI? But if i don't i can't deal with the foul by A?

I know what I would do…I would have A shoot their extra FT with lane spaces cleared and then line all players up for B 1 and 1 and play on. If the case play is correct about not being a change in possession how do i get to my result. (which is going to POI in the end)
maybe I'm having a complete and total brain cramp...

crosscountry55 Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 969541)
I'm giving myself a headache. Let me ask anybody this…



The correctable error rule says we go to the POI unless it involves awarding a merited FT and there has been no change of team possession since the error. if no change of team possession then resume it like any other FT attempt.



The case play 2.10.1A, we all know, says team B securing the rebound and passing to a teammate constitutes no change in team possession. You go back and shoot the free throw with lane spaces occupied.



Let's say the play goes further and team A fouls team B after the teammate catches the pass. lets say team B is in the bonus. so in this example the ball is not going to go to team A. (they are not entitled to throw in or FT). The ball is going to stay with team B. Has there been a "change of team possession." If there hasn't, I'm not supposed to go to the POI? But if i don't i can't deal with the foul by A?



I know what I would do…I would have A shoot their extra FT with lane spaces cleared and then line all players up for B 1 and 1 and play on. If the case play is correct about not being a change in possession how do i get to my result. (which is going to POI in the end)

maybe I'm having a complete and total brain cramp...

I hate to admit it, but I would do the same thing. I don't have rules justification to cancel or ignore the foul on A, so in the spirit of administering penalties in the order in which the fouls occurred, I'd feel obliged to do it this way.

Makes me second guess what I'd do if B were NOT in the bonus.

Would be interesting to get an official NFHS interp on this.


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BigCat Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 969543)
I hate to admit it, but I would do the same thing. I don't have rules justification to cancel or ignore the foul on A, so in the spirit of administering penalties in the order in which the fouls occurred, I'd feel obliged to do it this way.

Makes me second guess what I'd do if B were NOT in the bonus.

Would be interesting to get an official NFHS interp on this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I don't think 2.10.1A can survive.

Nevadaref Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:12am
You are both having difficulty with the administration because the Case Play is just wrong. If you accept that, then you won't have an issue.

BigCat Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 969622)
You are both having difficulty with the administration because the Case Play is just wrong. If you accept that, then you won't have an issue.
i was reluctant to say a play that had been in the case book for a number of years was wrong. Playing it out further as i did this morning proves to me that it is wrong. i wanted to see if i was missing anything.

i dont see any way to save it.

gslefeb Thu Nov 12, 2015 06:46am
No change in possession
 
A1 is entitled to 2 free throws, after the first free throw the ball remains live. A4 rebounds and is fouled by B4. Team A is in the bonus.

Since there has been no change in possession. How is this administered?

Raymond Thu Nov 12, 2015 08:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gslefeb (Post 969628)
A1 is entitled to 2 free throws, after the first free throw the ball remains live. A4 rebounds and is fouled by B4. Team A is in the bonus.

Since there has been no change in possession. How is this administered?
That's a lot simpler. Shoot A1's free throw with the lane clear, then line everybody up for A4's one-and-one.

Of course, me, I'll say I was blowing my whistle to kill the play b/c we had another free throw to shoot. ;)

BigCat Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 969630)
That's a lot simpler. Shoot A1's free throw with the lane clear, then line everybody up for A4's one-and-one.

Of course, me, I'll say I was blowing my whistle to kill the play b/c we had another free throw to shoot. ;)
The next question is how do we get here under the rules, to using the POI, when the rule says we dont use it if there isnt a change of possession?

BryanV21 Thu Nov 12, 2015 01:42pm
Is there anything about ignoring the foul unless it's flagrant?

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