First Louisiana now Mississippi
 

Mississippi basketball officials are now threatening to strike on the eve of competition after receiving two $5 raises over the last decade.

High school basketball practice began today but will the referee - WLOX.com - The News for South Mississippi

Obligatory "what happened to doing it for the kids?" response.

Now that's out the way.

Interesting to see if the Louisiana officials will cross over after what they've been through. Were Biloxi officials coming over to Louisiana during their dispute?

I wouldn't dare cross that line in an official's strike.

$40/game for varsity?! That's INSANE!

They should absolutely strike. Even the fees listed (which may be inaccurate) for Alabama and Louisiana are criminally low.

I didn't get the impression they were, but are these 3-person games at least?! Some of the videos showed three officials, but the president was talking about a goal of $110 total for two officials.

I'm with you, Mississippi!

The way I read it is they work 2 games a night and not 2 refs per game. They make $40/game or $80 with a goal of $55/110.

Here in South Carolina, a 3-man crew makes $78 apiece plus mileage for a varsity doubleheader (which is typical) and $55 apiece plus mileage for a single varsity game. Just for comparison.

Why should a second game pay less than a first game? $23 for a varsity game?

We assign DH in various sports here -- not often basketball. But when someone works 2 baseball or 2 softball games, the fee is twice the single game fee. Why wouldn't it be?

I agree -- when "mileage" is paid separately. When mileage is included in the game fee, though, then I can see a (small -- not $32 on the $55 base) reduction in the second game.

And, the pay rate in SC only matters to those who are in or willing to go to SC -- it has not effect on the rates in LA or MS.

We don't pay mileage in the conference I assign. So, technically, I guess it's "included."

We still pay $X for a game and $2X for 2 games.

I didn't say it made sense. ;)

Here mileage is only paid when the official travels a minimum of 51 miles round trip according to the following scale:
51-75 Miles:$13
76-125 Miles:$19
126-175 Miles:$31
176-250 Miles:$43
251-350 Miles:$55
351-450 Miles:$73

Crews are paid $69 a person for 3 person and $73 for 2 person per game

*Regular season mileage is calculated from the home address of the official unless they live outside the assignment area.If they live outside the assignment area their mileage calculation begins at the point where they enter the assignment area.

*Playoff mileage is calculated from the meeting place of the association and only payable to the lead official in every sport.

That seems like a very typical way to pay officials at least here. They pay double headers a set fee and it does not match the pay for each individual game if assigned without it being a double header. It is certainly not right and I will not work many of them for this reasoning, but it will take more than a couple of people to make sure that changes. Schools half the time cry poor, which in our state they are.

Peace

In Texas we are at $55 per Varsity game plus mileage. 2 or 3 man is irrelevant since we are busting our butts to hustle and get plays right either way, but I digress. Also, we are supposed to get a well deserved pay increase for 2016. :)

I think it is pretty easy to argue there is a basis for *some* differential -- comp for a game essentially includes time to get ready -- making sure the uniform and gear is ready, getting dressed, stretched, in the mind set, travel time (not just the mileage) and so forth. Much more efficient economically to do a double header than to do games on two separate nights. (I'm not *remotely* arguing that a double-header paying only 141% of a single game (55 vs 78) makes sense, only that there is some logic to getting paid more if having to make the effort for a single game -- and it sure sounds better to think about it as extra for doing only one game instead of less for the second game of a double header.) What "some" *is* reasonable I won't attempt to define.

If only I had that option. Almost all of our game assignments in SC are doubleheaders, girls then boys. Just the way it's always been done. As eluded to, it's just more economic from the schools' perspective. Also, if the girls played on their own night, no fans would come. Seriously.

I would love to see the day where I have the option of not working girls basketball. Unfortunately, that won't happen anytime soon.

Well they do not schedule or assign games in that fashion here for the most part. We work only boys on a night or only girls on another night. And if they ever do a "pack the place night" where they might play a boys and girls game, they assign two sets of officials.

For the record, not many come out for girls games anyway and that still does not change how they schedules run. Also girls basketball starts a week earlier and their playoffs start earlier based on class in some cases up to two weeks before the boys playoffs start. And I do not think a good girls team wants to play the same school of another school that does not have an equally comparable team outside of conference play. Girls play in their own tournaments and own shootouts so not sure that would be practical here. I only work boys basketball so this is only a school issue for most of us here rather than an assigning issue.

Peace

In my area we usually (almost always) work a double header. Most of the schools have all contest between them on the same night...varsity in the main gym...JV in a second gym...possibly freshmen in a third (yes, many schools have that many gyms) though freshmen sometimes play on a different night.

In the secondary gym there will be JVB-JVG double header and in the main gym there will be a VG-VB double header. Two crews assigned to work both games (typically two whistles for JV and three whistles for V).

I would not work for the rates in Mississippi.

While I don't agree with the specific amounts, the concept is valid. You only have to travel to/from the site once regardless of how many games you do. Building the travel amount into the fee is not uncommon and not unreasonable. They could just pay $23 per game regardless of the number then pay $32 for getting there. Again, I think the numbers are off, but not the concept.

It's not usually a matter of schools being "poor". It's a matter of them not wanting to fundraise more. Most places I'm aware of, expenses of extracurricular sports come from things like participation fees, gate fees, concessions, fan apparel, and fundraising. It does not come from the same pool of money as funding normal school operations does.

They figure if they can chop the officials fees, they don't have to beg for money as much in the community.

Well that might depend on your state and how schools are funded. And it might not apply to the private schools that get no such state funding. We have a funding issue in Illinois and the schools are not getting money from the state as they are promised. There are all kinds of schools trying to complain about payment to officials or upgrading facilities because they are not financially strapped. It is one thing to not fund raise, but not everything is in the budget when we have teachers complaining they are not paid enough or have other rights as a result. I suspect that officials are way down on the list of priorities right or wrong.

Peace

When you only work 9 months out of the year, you can't expect the taxpayers to pay you for 12.

I am not trying to make a political statement here, I am pointing out that there are other needs that schools claim to have. Some schools would rather pay for computers than play an extra $5 or $10 for an official a game. Right or wrong this is the reality when we complain about our pay.

And tax players complain when little Johnny cannot read at the right age group or cannot do other functions to get into college. So it is a little more than how many months you work, it is what you value.

Peace

Could Not Have Said It Better Myself ...
 

JRutledge: As a retired middle school science teacher, you have my sincere appreciation, and thanks.

BillyMac

My mom is a retired professor, so I get it.

Peace

All teachers I know cram 12 months of work into far fewer than 9.

Most unappreciated, underpaid professionals I've ever seen.

You don't know many teachers then.

I know some who do that and just as many who don't. And there lies the real problem, figuring out a way to reward the good teachers without rewarding the bad ones.

Not the case where I work in Iowa. Fees vary by conference, but I never get double for a basketball doubleheader. The big 4A conference I work in pays $75 for a single 3 person varsity game and we always just work one game. When I work smaller schools it's always a girl/boy doubleheader and we only get $90 working 3 person. Needless to say I try to work as few games as possible at the smaller schools. They only pay travel to the person who drives the farthest so if I'm not working with my regular guys who live in my area I could drive 50 miles each way and get no travel pay. Not worth it.

All HS baseball dates in Iowa are doubleheaders so there really isn't a one game fee. Generally $110 for a varsity doubleheader which I think is still low considering how long they can take.

re:
 

From the article:

"The state's basketball referees are the lowest paid among all officials who work for the MHSAA."

And at $40 per game, or even $45 if they got that raise the MHSAA was offering, I'd venture to guess they're the lowest paid officials in the COUNTRY. Heck, we get $45 per game for MIDDLE SCHOOL. Granted, it's 2 man, but still...

"It's Good To Be The King" ...
 

Connecticut game fees for 2015-2016: Varsity Fee: $94.63; Sub Varsity Fee: $61.39. Two person games. No mileage.

I'd rather make $60 each 3-person. So would a lot of other officials.

First Louisiana now Mississippi
 

There are a few three person games in Connecticut. Not many, but a few, usually between top notch, big-city schools. My little coroner of Connecticut is more suburban, or rural, so I can't tell you what the three person fees are.

First Louisiana now Mississippi
 

The conference I assign is rural. 348 games, all 3-person. This is the first season games are assigned with 3 officials. I let crews bring a third last year and split 2 checks if they wished. A surprising number chose to do so, even though it cost each official $20.

I did have a few officials ask why we didn't raise the fees and work 2-person. Every one of those cared more about the money than the work.

AZ is all 2-man. We get $65 +$10 travel in Phx metro area. Very rarely are there double headers (only at the smallest of the independent schools). I think sub varsity gets $45+45+10 for JV-Frosh double header w/travel. Every once in a while varsity will fill in (no show). We get to school around 5:30 for 7:00 game. More and more of the sub varsity guys are just in it for the money these days. Don't even want to move up because they make less per night. I have a problem with that when they don't even try to do a good job, but it sure makes everyone appreciate us more for the varsity game.

Amen. My local board committed this year to finally going all 3-p for varsity. They took a $10 cut per game ($85-$75) and the 2-p JV officials are also going to eat a $10 cut ($55-$45) to help subsidize the increased varsity cost on the schools.

I'm all for it and I think most folks in the room agreed. But there was a subtle grumble from the cadre of permanent JV officials.


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I've argued for a long time that this should happen. Those who improve will work varsity. Those who are happy working lower level ball (here that means closer to home) shouldn't get paid close to what V officials get paid.

Now that's the right way to do it. When NV shifted to 3-person, the Varsity crew split the previous two-person fee. The frosh and JV fees were not changed. That meant that the Varsity game fee was only about $5 more than the JV/frosh fee. It didn't make sense then and doesn't now.
People in NV still do better taking the frosh/JV double-header over a single Varsity game.

Just for comparison, in North Dakota, our fees are:

Class A Basketball (18 min halves): Varsity $73.50 - Soph/JV $40.50
Class B Basketball (8 min quarters): Varsity $71.50 -Soph/JV $40.50
Freshman: $35
7th-8th Grade: $30

NDHSAA is working to narrow the gap from Varsity to Soph/JV games.

**Rates are the same whether it is 2 or 3 person crews. Nearly all varsity games are 3 person crews.

**Mileage: Our state pays the state rate of $.575 per mile for the driver. Any roundtrip over 100 miles includes $.05 per mile for the riders.

I don't know anyone who expects that, but teachers only get paid for 9 months. That pay is just spread out over 12 months.

We had a fee increase in our area in Missouri in the last year or so. Our game fees are based on the length of the quarters being played:

6 min = $40
7 min = $50
8 min = $60

The majority of nights are JV/V doubleheaders where you make $110 or $120 depending on if the JV teams play 8-minute quarters or 7-minute quarters.

We get a $15 fee added on to any single game played (Usually a varsity-only night when they don't have a JV team), so it's $75 for a single varsity game.

We meet partners and ride together the vast majority of the time. The driver gets round-trip miles at 40 cents/mile.

I don't have many complaints about our fees. The only thing I don't like is that we make a half-game fee for working half a game. We could work a half JV game and make $25, whereas if we just didn't work the game at all and got the $15 single game fee, we would only be making $10 less. So in a sense, we are working that JV half for $10. I feel like we should do something like knock $10 off the game fee if you only play a half.

WTF?!?!?:confused:

I've been in this referee business for quite some time, and I don't recall EVER being scheduled to only work half a game.

Am I alone in this?

Montana
 

When I lived in Montana the smaller schools would hire three officials; two varsity officials and a JV official (usually a newbie)...each varsity official would work a half of the JV game with the third, and the JV official would watch and learn during the varsity game.

It was actually a great experience for all parties...

From A Retired Teacher ...
 

Here in Connecticut, teachers are only paid for about 185 (depends on school district) days, about 181 days with students, the other days are staff development days (mandatory to maintain certification).

Fifteen paid sick days (the students are constantly sneezing, and coughing, all over the teachers).

A few very specific personal days (closing on house, funeral, birth of child, marriage, adopt child, graduation, etc.)

No pay for "snow days".

No paid vacation days. No paid summer vacation. No paid winter vacation. No paid spring vacation.

No paid holidays.

No time-and-a-half overtime.

I don't blame the jv guys for grumbling; why should they subsidize the varsity guys?. I work a lot of varsity but still work some lower level stuff too and I wouldn't work a 2 person HS jv game for $45. You work harder doing a 2 person sophomore boys game than you do working a 3 person boys varsity game.

It's not about the time or effort.

If you want the checks, work the varsity level.

At one time I missed the extra money I'd make working a Frosh/JV DH. However, I take pride in being a varsity official, so the extra money doesn't mean anything to me. Not to mention that fewer schools even have Frosh teams anymore.

By the way, in no way am I saying those officials that work sub-varsity games are "beneath" me and other varsity officials. If they are happy doing that, then great. We need good officials at those games too. But at least have some pride in what you do, and do your best for the players, coaches, schools, etc. I can't stand officials with the "meh, whatever" attitude.

"Work" isn't just how much you run. I think a lot of 3p varsity officials feel they work pretty darn hard.

Don't forget that varsity officials don't get home until 10pm most nights; that also deserves compensation.

At the end of the day it's like that line from the movie Moneyball: "It's not about the money. It's about what the money says."


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It usually happens at smaller schools that don't have enough players to play full JV games. They have to use some of the would-be JV players during the varsity game and they are limited to six quarters a night, so they don't have enough quarters left to play a full JV game.

Some of them will just play one JV quarter. Some only have 7-8 players total and will only play the varsity game with no JV game at all.

This is the exception more than the rule. The vast majority of nights are JV/V doubleheaders.

More running maybe, but not more scrutiny or even pressure. There is a lot more to doing a varsity game than there is often doing a lower level game, which might not include all areas of the rules or administrative situations.

I think the varsity should be paid much more every single time. When a lower level game is scheduled on its own, it often does not have as many fans and in some cases is not even a charge to attend. That might be different in Mississippi or other states/areas, but that is pretty much the case here.

Peace

I personally find it easier to work a varsity game with 3 officials. Yes there is more scrutiny but I don't stress out about that, it's still just a high school basketball game not life or death. Varsity games generally have a better flow and are more predictable in my opinion because the level of play is better. JV games are often a real train wreck. As for the number of fans in the stands who cares? I rarely hear them anyway.

First Louisiana now Mississippi
 

It's a train wreck nobody cares about. Tell me the next time the JV standings are posted in the local paper. Who won the JV state championship?

Those that do them where I live do so cause they can work 8 dates at the local HS, be done by about 7, and run out the door as fast as they can.

If it were up to me I'd cut their pay another $7.50 each and give each of the varsity officials $5 more.

Perhaps going to extremes will help...

If I blow a call at a 3rd grade church league game I may get a little flack, but by the end of the game nobody really cares.

If I blow a call during a varsity game I could very well get a ton of flack, and some people may remember it for years.

Oh, and the chances of your screw-up being caught on video at a varsity game is much... MUCH... higher.

Paying sub-varsity officials anything near what varsity officials are paid on the basis that "2-man crews work harder" is absolutely laughable.

If the 2 vs 3 logic were true, then HS officials in 2-person states should make more than college officials.

When I am talking about scrutiny, I am not talking about fans. Fans are one thing, but your game on TV is another. Your game on live TV is another as well. You working a game with a kid that is going to some of the top institutions in college is another. You having kids that will likely be in the NBA like Derrick Rose or Jahlil Okafor and Jabari Parker is another. I have been fortunate to work some live TV games and the main scrutiny did not come from the fans. The main scrutiny came from fellow officials who wanted to be there and thought you should not be there. Or they were wondering why they were not there. And as Rich said, I have never had a Tweet about a game I was working at the JV level. I had a media person use my name during a State Final game where I was mostly in the background.

Also if you are talking about a physical strain, I run a lot more in varsity 3 person games than I do during a 2 person freshman game and a sophomore game (which are prelim games here). Bigger, faster and stronger, it is that simple. It is different chasing around 6'8" players over 6'0 players. And every call you make with those bigger players are scrutinized by folks that are not just fans. Work a big Thanksgiving and Christmas Tournament, people know you were there. This myth that no one knows you are there is no longer. That might have worked when there was no YouTube, but not when many games are on streaming video or live feeds.

Peace

And on top of Rut's excellent post, let me say this:

They aren't paying me for how much I run. They're paying me to be in the right position, have good judgment, and know the rules. They're paying me for whatever intangibles I have that let me call games at the level I call.

Anyhow, I just went through my schedule for the season today now that football is behind me.

Finally....the entire year is 3-person. No looking back now. Been a long time coming here.

I asked my friend Paul Ryan to use his new Speaker of the House muscle to make that happen in his district for you, Rich.

You're welcome. [emoji6]


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