"Change of possession" correctable error
 

NFHS 2.10.1 Situation A

A1 is fouled and entitled to two free throws. However, the officials indicate a one-and-one bonus situation. The first attempt is unsuccessful; B4 rebounds the ball and passes it up to B2. The error is discovered with B2 in possession of the live ball near mid-court. RULING: The error is discovered within the correctable error timeframe, and shall be corrected. Team B securing the rebound and passing to a teammate constitutes no change in team possession. Therefore, A1 will receive the merited free throw with players in lane line spaces and play resumes from the free throw.

Just for clarification, is the reason that this does not constitute a change of possession because team control ended upon the release of the free throw attempt?

Although I think most of us agree that team control ends once the free throw is released (and the rules intend for it to), the rules don't seem to explicitly clarify this.

Nope, it's just because someone with the NFHS wrote that incorrectly. There is clearly a change of team possession from A attempting a FT to B rebounding the miss.
The proper way to administer this play is to halt the game with Team B in control at midcourt, have A1 attempt the second FT with no players along the lane, and then return to midcourt and award Team B a POI throw-in.

I Disagree. Rule 6-7Article 2a states that the ball remains deadwhen a free throw is to be followed by another free throw. The official incorrectly indicating a 1-1 situation and team B getting a rebound does not change the fact that the ball is still dead and a second free throw is to follow.

There is clearly a change in possession from A shooting the FT and B rebounding the ball. The rule says however, no change of possession "since the error was made." The error here is made when B rebounds the ball and plays on. The play has been in the book for years. best i can come up with at this time..to support the case play...

Is there team possession on a free throw? I don't believe there is. Can't have a change of possession if A never has team control.

This has been in the case book since at least 1997-8 when I started (and probably a lot longer). I admit that it perplexed the heck out of me as well. But I will say that if NFHS had an editing error, surely it would have fixed it by now. Ok, ok....I'll settle for "hopefully" it would have fixed it by now considering we're talking mostly about the Struckhoff era. :rolleyes:

Anyway, here's the deal. BigCat was correct in that the sequence and the words matter. There is no correctable error until it becomes clear that there is a failure to award a merited free throw, and this happens when B rebounds and the officials signal to start the clock. That's the initial possession of concern. Even if you argue that the error is recognized when players in the lane spaces start to go in, the free throw has already been released at that point, and we all know that there is no team control (and therefore no possession) on a try.

Say it with me now.....there has been no change in possession since the error was recognized.

If team A is holding the ball or it is at it's "disposal" they have team control. free throw, throw in...etc. look over team control and live ball dead ball stuff. thx

It makes no sense to me why the NFHS uses the undefined term "possession" instead of the proper term "control" or "team control."

Rule 4-41-2

"A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into the team's own basket."

Therefore, according to this, a free throw is not a "try", and therefore the rule about team control ending on a try for goal is irrelevant here. A team is in control when the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter, and a FT doesn't end until the try is successful, when the ball touches the floor or any player, or when the ball becomes dead. So from the time the ball is at the disposal of the free thrower, to when one of the things in the last sentence happens, the ball is in Team A's control.

But anyway, like BigCat said, the error doesn't occur until Team B gains control and the clock is started by an official. Therefore, Team B was in control from the time the error occurred until the error was found. So no change of possession occurred... shoot the 2nd FT, and go from there.

Disagree.

4-20-1

“A free throw is the opportunity given a player to score one point by an unhindered try for goal from within the free-throw semicircle and behind the free-throw line.”

So, there is some discrepancy between 4-41-2, which says that "a try for field goal...two or three points..." and 4-20-1. But it's pretty clear to me that the intent of the rule is that team control ends upon the release of the free throw.

This is not correct.

Would you mind telling me why? I'm not saying my interpretation is right, but just saying I'm wrong is a little messed up.

See bballref.

Speaking of which, I'm not the first person to point out a discrepancy between a rules apparent intent and what is actually written. If I have to explain a call to somebody I'm more likely to go by what is actually written, not what I think they meant to write.

And another poster (sorry for being lazy and not going back to see who) pointed out that this case play has been around for a long time. Not to say it would be the first time the NFHS has botched something, but there's a decent chance it's correct as written.

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For the reason that bballref said. That and there is no basis for the idea that team control continues on a free throw once the shooter releases the ball.

I understand that there is some discrepancy, but the idea of team control continuing until the end of the free throw is unheard of (or, at least I have never heard it).

The wording of 4-20-1 implies, at least in my opinion, that a free throw is to be treated the same as a two- or three-point try when it comes to the termination of team control.

Sorry, but I don't like simply being told I'm wrong, or what I said isn't right. I'm not a little kid whose mom or dad decides to tell me something is the way it is "because I told you so". And if you were just backing up what bballref had to say, then why not say that?

And I gave you a basis for the idea that team control continues through the free throw. You can go back and check it out. Take a few minutes to do so and come back here.

Anyway...

Why would 4-41-2 be so specific about the number of points a try is worth? Why not leave the number of points out of it and simply say "A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score"?

Either 4-20-1 or 4-41-2 is written incorrectly. So was 4-41-2 needlessly precise about the number of points, or should 4-20-1 not use the words "try for goal", thus causing this confusion?

Personally, I go with the one that was more precise.

I gave you a rules basis for why I believed you are incorrect. If you don't want to accept that, I really don't care. But don't act like I just told you that you were wrong without telling you my opinion why.

You said that "A team is in control when the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter." Yes, this is correct. But then you went on to say "and a FT doesn't end until the try is successful, when the ball touches the floor or any player, or when the ball becomes dead. So from the time the ball is at the disposal of the free thrower, to when one of the things in the last sentence happens, the ball is in Team A's control."

You equated the end of the free throw with being the end of team control. The end of the free throw and the end of team control are not the same thing.

It is partially because a team has "possession" at times beyond when they have control. Possession, as it is often used, includes the time from when an infraction occurs such that the penalty grants the team a throwin/FT to the time when the ball becomes live.

Already covered is the fact that there is no team control when a FT is in the air. However, there is one more thing here that is also incorrect. There is one more reason a ends that you haven't listed and it is among the more common reasons.

Rule 4-20 ART. 3 . . . The free throw ends when the try is successful, when it is certain the try will not be successful, when the try touches the floor or any player, or when the ball becomes dead.

So, the FT ends when it comes off the rim, not later as you imply.

As for the rules support for the fact that team control ends when the FT is released:

Rule 4-37 ART. 1 . . . Rebounding is an attempt by any player to secure possession of the ball following a try or tap for goal. In a rebounding situation there is no player or team control.

The rule you reference about the try and control only referring to 2 or 3 point shots and not FTs is just wrong. It says a "FIELD" goal is an attempt to score 2 or 3 points, not that a try is an attempt to score 2 or 3. Rule 4-12 says that team control continues until a try or tap is in flight without regard to whether it is a FT or a FG.

Then there is the definition of a FT:

Rule 4-20 ART. 1 . . . A free throw is the opportunity given a player to score one point by an unhindered try for goal from within the free-throw semicircle and behind the free-throw line.

It is specific about the number of points a FIELD GOAL is worth. You've decided to arbitrarily leave out the words FIELD GOAL, then are chastising people who say your interpretation is wrong.

A try can be a field goal or a free throw.

A field goal is worth either 2 or 3 points

A free throw is worth 1 point.

In this scenario the ball never became live. Rule 4.13.6 states that neither team control nor player control exists during a dead ball. Rule 6.7.2a states that the ball remains dead on a free throw which is to be followed by another free throw.

Sorry, but I don't like people telling me there is confusion when there isn't any. A free throw is a TRY FOR GOAL, and that is clearly stated in 4-20 Art. 1

Team Control ends when the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal. Basketball 101. No confusion for me at all.

First, I originally quoted the entire rule. I didn't leave any words out. I certainly didn't try to deceive.

Secondly, the words "free throw" are not included anywhere in the definition of "shooting, try, tap", thus my assumption. After all, team control continues until "the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal". I then looked up the definition of a "try or tap".

Finally, I've never said I was absolutely right. I just brought up evidence of it. I went to sleep last night thinking what I said can't be right since that would mean a foul by A2 while A1's free throw attempt was in the air is a team control foul. However, what I'd read also made sense.

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Cute.

However, confusion on the part of one person does not mean confusion on the part of all people. I guess you forget part of the reason this message board exists, which is to help those that may need it.

And I think I laid out the reason for that confusion quite well. Or did you choose to skip my bringing up the fact that 4-41 does not include the words "free throw"?

I never said I was right and anybody was wrong. I gave reasons why I thought I was right. If anybody took that to mean I was calling them fools, or wrong... sorry.

IIRC (an increasingly rare occurrence, I admit), at one time, the case said "shoot the second FT and give the ball back to B." Then, it was changed to the present -- with no explanation. I do think it was posted with an asterisk next to it, so at least it wasn't an "unannounced change."

There are other examples, I am sure, where errors haven't been re-edited to be correct.

And, a FT is a try, and there's team control.

Is no one going to comment on how completely wrong this guy is?

What? You need to read Rule 6.

Well, when you respond like you did below, don't expect cute and cuddly responses.


Now back to the real discussion.


Nothing in 4-41 tells you that a Free Throw is not a try. You took 4-41 Art 2's definition of a FIELD GOAL and assumed that was the definition of a try. Your error was pointed out to you a couple of times and you chose to get defensive.

Why pass the buck? Be a Crew Chief and take charge. ;)

6-7-2a is the general rule. Ball becomes dead when it is apparent a FT is not successful and another one is to follow. However, when there is a screwup and the teams play on after the first free throw, clock starts ...you have entered the twilight /correctable error zone. We have the provision in rule 2 which says something like "consumed time, points scored and additional activity which occur prior to recognition of error…shall not be nullified."

So yes, the ball is dead or should be dead after the first miss when a free throw is to be followed by another free throw but it comes to "life" if everybody screws up-- players, referees, timers etc...and play goes on….

If 4-12-3a is going to simply say team control continues until the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal, then perhaps the definition of a try or tap should include the words "free throw" in there.

By the way, no need to come back with another "field goal is not a free throw" thing. I get it. But seeing how "field goal" is not clearly defined in Rule 4 as meaning a shot from the field... not a free throw, I wanted clarification. Heck, maybe it is and I'm not seeing it.

Actually, "try" is not defined explicitly either. We have to mesh together when it starts (4-41 Art. 3) and when it ends (4-41 Art. 4) to come up with a definition. But in 4-41 Art. 2, we are told that field goals are tries of the 2 and 3 point variety. And we are also told in 4-21 Art. 1 that a free throw is a "try" for goal.

Can't they just make it more clear? I know... I know... look who I'm talking about

In my heart I knew team control ended on the release of the free throw, but when trying to defend that with rules I ran into that other stuff.

Please believe me... I wasn't meaning to say "this is what it says so THERE". I meant to say "I'm reading this and that... help?"

I'm doing this from memory, but I think in rule 5 it says something like, "A FT try is worth 1 point; a 3-point try is worth 3 points. Any other time a live ball goes through the basket it's 2 points."

I'm saying why can't 4-41 include a FT attempt as a try, instead of us having to assume that based on other rules?

If the book spelled every related thing out in every section/article it wouldn't fit in your bag.

Fair point

I am now that I am awake....

It is not dead since the official actually awarded only 1 FT. Since 1 FT was awarded, it remained live. It shouldn't have, but, due to the incorrect award, it did.

You can propose a rules change / edit.

Done. Thanks for the suggestion.