NCAA-M New Rules Thread
 

NCAA-Men's

Rule 4-38 is going to be fun. Here is what the preface says:

"This rule change clarifies that an offensive player also has verticality rights and must be given enough space by the defender to make a normal basketball move"

We also now have 4-17.6.e & A.R. 89. Shooters can no longer move into the path of a forward-moving airborne defender to draw a foul.

I read AR 89 as saying when A1 pump fakes B1 into the air (B1 is moving forward) then A1 jumps forward and makes contact with B1, in the air, the foul is on B1 for not maintaining LGP. verticality. in the second situation B1 goes straight up and when A1 jumps into B1 its nothing or a foul on A1.

Maybe I'm missing something....

A1 pump fakes. B1 jumps forward but is in a path that will keep him clear of A1. A1 then jumps into B1's path to attempt the shot.

OK. I thought you were citing AR 89 in support of your comment. This play is different than AR 89. I guess a better way for me to say it is I would not reach that conclusion just from reading AR 89. thx

Did you read the entire approved ruling?

A.R. 89 does support my comment. The grey highlighted area for A.R. 89.2 does not reference a defender jumping straight up, it references a defender jumping forward.

I downloaded case book today at NCAA publications. My AR 89 says: A1 tries a pump fake and DEFENDER B1, who is in legal guarding position:

1. Jumps forward into the air and A1 then jumps forward and makes contact with B1 in the air.

2. Jumps straight up in the air and A1 then jumps forward and makes contact with B1 in the air.

Number 1 has the defender jumping forward and number 2 has defender jumping straight up. Do I have a different book......

There is a "ruling" paragraph below it. The 2nd half of that "ruling" paragraph is highlighted and starts with the word "However".

:eek: i was looking at the 2015 case book. i see it now....sorry

They should have included pictures/drawings for 4-38….:) I havnt had a meeting yet or looked at any video but pretty obvious they want space between players. Likely directed at the defender who tries to get in someone's grill... getting more flow/freedom of movement..4-38-1c needs a picture...

Is this going to be the "get out of my way" rule?

I'll have to get back to you..im still trying to figure out the diameter of the cylinder they are trying to describe:eek:--- I can see the situation when the offense is holding the ball and defense gets soooo close. offense can't move….maybe the "get back" rule.

A.R. 89. A1 tries a pump fake and defender B1, who is in legal guarding
position:

1. Jumps forward into the air and A1 then jumps forward and makes contact with B1 in the air; or

2. Jumps straight up in the air and A1 then jumps forward and makes contact with B1 in the air.

RULING 1: Even though B1 established legal guarding position on the floor, his jump forward and toward A1 is not a legal attempt to maintain legal guarding position so that any non-incidental contact with A1 is a personal foul on B1. However, if B1’s jump forward is in a direction that he clearly would not have made contact with the shooter, and the shooter moves sideways to cause the contact, B1 has not committed a personal foul. (Rule 4-17.6.e)

2: B1 has again established initial legal guarding position and his jump into the air is a legal attempt to maintain legal guarding position as long as the jump is within B1’s own vertical plane. Any subsequent contact by A1 jumping forward and into B1 is either a personal foul on A1 or incidental contact. (Rule 4-17.6.e)

Bolded portion is the new part of the case book play

I love this addendum. I wish NFHS would adopt this.

+1

Just showing what levels of play above NF are saying about this play:

NBA (2014-2015) Case Book:

262. Offensive Player A1 pump fakes a 3-point field goal attempt and Defender B1 clearly jumps/runs to the side of A1 and would not make any contact. Player A1 jumps sideways and initiates contact with Defender B1. How is this handled?

Since Defender B1 was not going to contact Player A1, a foul cannot be called on him assuming he did not reach over and hit his opponent. If the contact by A1 is marginal, meaning it did not affect B1’s ability to continue play, no foul has occurred. If the contact initiated by A1 is more than marginal, an offensive foul shall be assessed.

RULE 12B - SECTION VII

Maybe it's new in the casebook, but haven't we always pretty much called it this way? No call, and when the coach yells, we say "Your guy created the contact, Coach". That's pretty standard around here at the college level, I think.

Some have, some haven't.....hence the change/clarification.

this is fair to prevent Shooters from claiming cheap fouls on the faked defender, but you will expect alot more collision when driving towards the basket, defenders will simply jump into the path of the ball handler in advance knowing he will get away with the foul. And what decides whether a shooter is moving into the path, does it mean the shooter has to jump before the defender does, or simply imply that shooter has to reach that air space before the defender does irregardless who jumped 1st.

Not sure I understand your point....could you draw us a diagram please? :D

Please read the following:

It is about when A1 goes in a direction that A1 was not previously going and has not realistic reason to go simply to create contact. If A1 is already driving down the lane and B1 jumps in the path, B1 must meet all the rules of LGP to not be called for a block since A1 had already established that path.

Reset for 10 second B/C count except for:

a) defense causing ball to OOB in B/C.
b) technical foul of offense
c) held ball in B/C and offense retains possession.

So, should there be a reset of 10 second B/C count if:

1) after ball is dead and clock is stopped, offense is granted a time-out?
2) there is a double foul or a double technical foul?

Here's the actual wording:

The 10-second count shall be reset on all stoppages of the game clock except when the defense causes the ball to be out of bounds, the offense retains the possession after a held ball, or there is a technical foul assessed against the offensive team�

The wording of the rule says the reason for the clock stoppage controls (rightly or wrongly).
1. If the clock stoppage was from defense knocking ball out then the wording of the rule says don't reset the clock. The rule doesn't say offense can buy a new count with the timeout. I think they should be able to but that isn't what it says. Apparently, they will have to throw the ball in and then call the timeout to get a new count…if needed.

2. Double foul isn't listed so reset the count. Double tech isn't listed so also reset the count. In both of those situations the defense is also doing something wrong so reset the count. (i realize in a double tech situation a technical foul is being "assessed against the offensive team" as mentioned in the rule but i think the double situation changes it. If they wanted double techs to prevent a reset of the clock they would have included double fouls.)

This is what i get from reading the rule--they may change/clarify/interp. They may have just overlooked situations.

From my clinics so far, the consensus has been that the offense can buy back a 10-second count with a dead ball time-out. Art Hyland should have put case plays in for this new rule.

FWIW, in NCAAW, Team A can call a TO to get a new 10-second count:

QUESTION:

Concerning adjustment to the 10 second back court rule, can you confirm that if a timeout is called, the offensive team gets a new 10 seconds. If so, what occurs if the defensive team deflects the ball out of bounds with 23 seconds remaining and then the offense calls a timeout?

ANSWER:

When the team in control calls a timeout and they have not advanced the ball out of their back court, the team will always receive a new 10-second count to advance the ball into their front court, even when the defense deflects the ball out of bounds, there is a held ball and the AP arrow favors the team in control or there is a technical foul assessed to the team in control.

Does the NCAA-W rule read same or similar? As i said earlier, the offense should be able to buy a new count with a timeout but that isnt what the rule says. i cant read the new rule and determine/extrapolate etc that a timeout gives a new count. the wording doesnt support it. they need to add another sentence.

I think the rule reads exactly the same.

I'll, of course, call it however they want...It would be nice if they would actually put things in the rules or the case book. Buying a new count with a timeout isnt anywhere in the rules or case book. wouldnt be that hard to add....

Prohibition on dunking during dead ball is lifted. I don't/won't care until somebody tears the rim or backboard off and delays me an hour....

My JuCo supervisor says there will be no dunking in his conference.

The NCAAW SRE has said any rules that are identical under both codes will be worded the same in both rule books to avoid confusion. He and Art Hyland went over those situations during the summer when everything was being written.

As for the time-out/ten-second count reset: Any time-out granted to Team A results in a new ten-second count. We were told the rules committee felt if a team wants to burn one of its time-outs to prevent/reduce the chance of a violation, let 'em...especially since teams have one less time-out this season.

I just wish they would have explicitly spelled that out in a case play. There is nothing in writing that tells us to reset the 10-second count if the offensive team calls a time-out when the ball is dead.

Knowing the NCAAW SRE and his efforts to streamline the rule books, my guess is it wasn't specified because of this...

A time-out granted to Team A stops the clock and it's not one of the three reasons we won't reset, so it's a reset. It's one of those cases where the rule book says do X unless A, B or C happens. Neither A, B nor C happened, so do X.

If the time out is called while the ball is still alive then it is clearly supported by rule to reset the count. The timeout caused the stoppage. The play i'm thinking of, and likely BNR also, is if the defense knocks the ball out of bounds. That is the reason for the clock stoppage. Under the rule as written, there should not be a reset of the count. There isn't anything in the rule to say that the offense can use a timeout at that time to get a new count.

You didn't read my post carefully enough:

Maybe Jon will be in Arlington this weekend and I can ask him for an official answer, since Men's and Women's are using the same new rule. If Jon is not there, I always have the option of asking Al Battista.

When does the timeout occur? It occurs AFTER the defense has knocked the ball OOB. So, when the defense knocks it OOB, the count doesn't reset (yet). But, when the offensive team calls a timeout, it then resets the count as timeouts called by the offensive team do. There is (presumably since I have not actually read the rule) no qualification that the timeout be called with the clock running in order for the timeout to reset the count.

Take a look at the rule. It is set out somewhere above. The wording says reset the count unless the clock stoppage is from defense knocking it out etc. the wording says the event which causes the clock stoppage controls.

That is correct. But when something else happens later that has other consequences, it takes precedent.

This is not unlike when the penalty for an infraction indicates that a team shall get a throwin but they commit a technical foul before they get the throwin. You move on to the next event and how it is defined.

The rule says if the clock is stopped because the defense knocks the ball out of bounds there is no reset of the shot clock. That is all it says. If the count is at 8 and defense knocks it out of bounds then offense has 2 to get it across. That is what the rule says. There is nothing written anywhere in the rules which says a timeout by the offense after the ball is knocked out by the defense gives a new count. Should it? yes. but that is not what the rule says.

If the stoppage is from defense knocking ball out dont reset clock. If somoebody else fouls after the ball is out of bounds then you are right about subsequent acts taking precedence. there's nothing saying a timeout has that effect...

I agree with all of this. The way the rule is written states that the action that causes the clock to stop determines whether or not the 10 second count is reset. In the example we are discussing, the timeout does not cause the game clock to stop. It is already stopped because of the OOB.

I think we will learn the intent is to allow the timeout to reset the 10 second count, but the confusion before any official clarification comes out is legitimate. There should be a case play or more accurate wording in the rule itself.

Sorry about that, BNR. I see the difference. Jon has said any timeout by the team in control - regardless of whether the clock is running - resets the 10-second count. Today was my first chance to look at the rule book. I heard it so often during the summer I'm surprised that element isn't in there.

Deva vu all over again....

From my post 9 years ago......

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...nder-move.html

My situation had A1 stepping forward, up and under move, not "sideways" as mentioned in this thread....

Classic Jurassic thread.

Also had a reply from a future and current NBA ref.

Anyway that one of the administrators van put up the questions to the test of this thread for all of us to go over. I realize that they may be numbered differently on each exam ( my #2 might be your #18 )......just curious