Charge or Block (Video)
 

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It was called blocking, but I think it's just good defense. No call at at all seems appropriate, but I do have a question about the last contact just prior to the whistle. The defender's hip gets slammed backwards. Is that ever enough for a charge or does the defender actually have to fall?

Or...nothing?

I don't have anything on this play. Plus it's 41-11 in the first, just sayin.

The same.

Uhhhhh....should we tell him?

Nothing

No the defender does not have to fall down. And this looks like a no call to me. But they may have a running clock and the official wanted a break.

Amen. A call like that is a good way to wake up the coach who is taking the beating.

nothing at all, if anything hand-check but I don't see that in this close game.

Close game.... that's funny. I had to watch the video a 2nd time to see the score.
Personally, I got nothing.
Maybe use game management for the rest of the game

There was no foul. The defense did what they are supposed to do, get in the way of the ball handler. The defender did not extend an arm or anything, she retreated her arms. And no one got an advantage from any contact, other than maybe a bigger defender was not moving to a smaller ball handler.

Peace

I'd like to see Trail "work the arc" and would expect him to be considerably more towards the center of the court, at the time of the whistle.

This call has the feel of the official trying to sort out the 10-6-12 d. - "Contacting the player more than once with the same or alternating hands."
Hopefully, there is a mentor or supervisor present/available who can help with both of these concepts.

I sometimes see officials, usually less experienced officials, make a call due to the anxiety of not having blown a whistle for a long time, and this call also has that feel.

For many experieiced officials, this sequence is a no-call, even considering 10-6-12.

The defender had her forearm out a couple of times but then A1 moved into her and the forearm collapsed. That's not a hand-check - actually, arm-bar - regardless of the score.

I was thinking the same thing, the initial contact early would have been an arm-bar foul. After that, there's nothing that warrants a whistle.

Yeah, but did she extend or place that forearm on the ball handler? I am not so sure she did. It was out, but retreated as the ball handler got to them. I do not think we can realistically expect them to completely remove their arms and hands from the front of their body. If the arm is extended or pushed way from the body, then I would agree. And this was the interpretation we were given in our state.

Peace

If I have to call something...
 

Since the clip is seven seconds long, I have a five second closely guarded call.

does hs women's have a closely guarded 5 count during the dribble?

HS does not have gender distinctions if they are using all NF rules. So the answer is yes.

Peace

I don't see the contactbeing much of a foul. In a girls game I get why it might be called but I don't think I'd call it. If anything I agree it should have been closely guarded call...

I don't. Please explain.

In my experience this is something that mostly would get called at a girls game. For one that is the expectations of many coaches and fans and officials will oblige that way of thinking. And this is usually why officials that work a lot of girls struggle in boys games. Again, that is just my observation. And it appears a foul was called in this case, not a 5 second violation.

Peace

Both of these statements are completely puzzling to me. I work both boys and girls HS...always have. The original clip looks like a no-call to me. Yet I'm curious how you two think OFFICIALS might call it differently based on whether it is a boys or girls game...or one would somehow struggle doing boys versus girls. It's not 1955 any more.

I know what he was saying, I just get sick of hearing people say it. I know I wouldn't put a whistle on this for a foul during one of my HS games, boys' or girls'.

Well when both gender officiating is on the same plane, then maybe people will stop making this point. But I have heard people suggest that the reason girls have stopped playing basketball (not sure this was scientific) was because the game had gotten so rough. Now, I watch a lot of basketball, girls basketball is no more rough than any boys game that is hotly contested, but I have seen people that want fouls called just because there was contact, even if the contact was not illegal. And in this example a foul being called is part of the problem here. Not every girls official at the high school level is a college official like yourself either.

Peace

That is a call I see made often in girls basketball that hinders the opportunity for those very same officials on the boys side (of course talking about my area and state). Where I live we are not required to be assigned both genders. We might have an assignor that assigns the boy's side of the conference and another assignor that assigns the girl's side of the conference. I can tell that if you call that foul with players that are in a pretty good talent pool for boys basketball, that will get you run out of the gym faster than prostitute in church. And I doubt a play that was filmed in HD is something as an example of what is taking place in 1955. I think we see a foul was called in this very play, which seems pretty typical. Unless you work a lot of D1 quality players like I did at the beginning of July in an AAU tournament, this seems to be an expected call by many in girls basketball.

Peace

I still work games on both sides.

I do not change how I call the game from the boys side to the girls side. I take every play at face value and try to apply a patient whistle to all plays. If a female player can't play through the same amount of contact, I'm not calling a foul "cause it's a girls game" -- I'm calling a foul because on that play it's a foul.

Around here, in general, better officials work HS boys games more than they work HS girls games.

So the statement may apply to the quality of official working a girls game as compared to a boys game.

That is pretty much the case in most of our state in my experience. My second year I have over 40 varsity girls games and in many cases was not assigned a boys games because I was not considered experienced or good enough. And on the flip side I had about 15 varsity boys games that same year. I only got the boys games for the most part because of my partner and they believed in his judgment. That all took place in rural Illinois. When I moved to the bigger area or part of the state, I had to do a lot more to prove I could work varsity boys games. And the varsity boys games were much better talent and the varsity I did in rural Illinois was not seen as good or the quality as the varsity that I currently work now.

And 19 years later or so, I still see officials not get a shot at boys varsity unless they have much more experience or have the top classification to even get a low level varsity game. Girls basketball is often for those who either are earlier in their career or at the end of their career. There are officials that can work a lot of girls basketball and are very good, but unfortunately those are not the norm. The college officials often will not work a lot of girls basketball as their schedule will not allow them to.

Peace

I'm living proof that BNR's comment is true in general in our neck of the woods. I'm on the the backside of my officiating career. I've done one BV game in each of the past two seasons. I'm okay with it. I work the games that I'm assigned. However like Rich, I call fouls based on the play not the gender. In this play, I have a play-on.

It's all local. Here many assigners will not use officials if they won't work both genders -- or if they work only boys they will get the same number of boys games as a crew who works both (I may get 5 boys and 5 girls -- that crew will only get the 4-5 boys games).

Those who think that people that work girls games are lesser officials can keep on thinking that. I'm quite secure in my abilities and what happens in other states means nothing in my little career.

It has nothing to do with what people think or if officials are secure in their abilities. It has every thing to do with the quality of officials who get assigned Girls games. Saying the games are the same means nothing if assignors are putting their best officials on Boys games, because, then in fact the games are not being called the same.

Around here, they're just games for the most part.

I assign the varsity games for 22 schools (21 boys, 20 girls programs) and I do my assigning about 18 months in advance. I think I have 4 crews who only work boys games and I give them each a few dates, but I don't go out of my way to load them up. The exception is one of our college guys who takes dates and then takes young officials (even people I ask him to take) to mentor -- I'd give him whatever he wanted.

For me availability, dependability, and willingness to travel more than in a small radius trump ability every day. At the end of the day, this is high school basketball, not big business.

There isn't a single person I use who I would use on the girls side but not the boys side. Some (mostly females) work only girls games by choice. But I'd use them in boys games, too.

Some may disagree with that, but that's OK. I have 348 games to assign and not everyone will be happy, although I try my best.

Then that's on assignor for their thought process. I hope you can appreciate as someone who works NCAAW games at the II, III and Juco level as well as BV and GV it ticks me off when I see assignors, officials or whoever dumb down the quality of the officiating. I think we've all seen that the quality of officiating can have an effect on how the game is played. It bothers me even more when I see the game - or the officiating - knocked in a forum like this. I appreciate both - in HS and below - because I work both and it's by choice because I have to be certified separately.

I totally agree it is all local. But if officials around here want to work boys basketball, they likely have to make a choice. And you are going to make a choice for a couple or reasons. Boy's assignors are not giving what they see as girls officials games for the most part. They do not see the officials that work girls basketball as overall the same quality. And most of all there are playoffs that are staggered. Girls start first by lower class and then bigger classes. So if you are working boys basketball, that would cut into your season or have to give back games if you are assigned any playoff on the girls side. And you cannot work that deep in the playoffs in both genders. You will have to decide on some level which you will focus on. And at the end of the day, the assignors want to assign people that are perceived to be the best as well. And if you are working the playoffs or get a chance to work a State Final, you are likely in the conversation of being one of the best. This is no different than what we were talking about what you put on your resume'. If you are not doing a lot of boys basketball, you might not ever get a real shot unless the assignor makes an exception for you as an official.

Peace

I can tell you that in my area, the girls coaches would raise hell if that was put into practice (and they would be justified in doing so). There are a couple that have state championship trophies in their cases and they wield clout with our assignor(s).

Like you said, it's local.

The state assigns both here. Nobody will work state in both genders, but a lot of officials work deep in both genders. It's not that unusual for a crew to work state on one side and a sectional or sectional final (state quarterfinal) on the other side.

Here, at the state level, gender is set aside and all games are treated as equal. But I know for a fact (as in, from the mouths of assignors) that is not how it is done at the association level. There is still a strong good ole boy mentality in this state when it comes to gender issues.

For me, I don't like working girls HS games because there is such a disparity in quality of play. And my assignors do not assign me Girls games, except for holiday tournaments. I have never requested such treatment, but since it is in line with what I desire, I don't say anything about it. I'm good with working Boys games exclusively. In the off-season, I enjoy very much working high level Girls AAU games because of the quality of play.

Well that is almost impossible here. Assignors or schools assign every regular season game. And right or wrong, they are the gatekeepers of what you will be eligible for in the post season. So if the IHSA wants to assign someone both, they would have to have good numbers or opportunities to be seen on that level.

I equate our system as what happens in college basketball. If the conferences or assignors are not going to make a habit of assigning an official to both genders, then you will never even be considered for both NCAA tournaments.

Peace

Going frame by frame in the video, about 1 second in and 13:59 on the game clock, 'MAYBE" an extended forearm foul but cannot tell from angle whether the forearm actually made contact. Also, I could make the argument that the BH/D is the one initiating the contact while the defender simply is moving sideways. I know from at least one of my supervisors I would probably get this clip asking to at least look at whether there was an arm bar foul.

I blame the assigners, then. What you are describing is not good for the schools, IMO.

I am under the impression the schools want it that way. Or at the very least the boy's coaches do not want to see officials that cannot handle basketball on the boy's side. If the schools had a problem with this, they would hire a supervisor for both genders most of the time. And since we are also independent contractors, no one can make anyone work games we do not want to work. This is not done without their direction. The entire system is in the hands of the schools anyway. They must feel it works for them. Unlike most places in the country, official's associations have no say in how games are assigned in any fashion. Even the nights the schools play each gender is in their hands. We do not tell them to hold boy's games on certain nights and times and girl's games at other times or not to do double headers. Schools have and could change this tomorrow.

Peace