Catch or no catch
 

Had the following last night while I'm umping behind the plate: Short pop fly near the foul line. Pitcher makes a diving catch, rolls over and lands on his back. As he raises he glove to show me the catch, the ball pops out.

I signaled out, explaining to the offensive team's coach that I felt the player had possession and the ball came out when he was showing me the catch.

After reading Rule: 2-9-1 on a catch, I'm still not sure if I interpreted it correctly. Is the player showing me the catch considered "continuing action of the catch"?

Pure judgment.

If the ball was left on the ground or came out of the glove on the first movement, generally no catch.

If the ball came out after the player had moved the glove a reasonable amount, or came out when he opened the glove to show you the ball, catch.

I agree with Bob on this. Pure judgement because there was no "voluntary release" by transferring the ball to the throwing hand.

"Complete control & voluntary release".

If I desperately needed an out, then he's out. Otherwise, no catch.

Just curious why an umpire would ever need an out, desperately or otherwise? ;)


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One example: 20-3, bottom of 4th & defense can't hem it up in a bushel basket.

Their problem - not yours.

I'm not an umpire. Just a former coach and rules nut/nit. But I can tell you this would really bother if I knew an umpire in my game made a decision based on what the score is.


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Your down 20-3 in a HS level or below game. The other coach keeps all his starters in the game to pile up the score. They are stealing bases left and right and your going to tell me that it will upset you if a umpire "made a decision based on what the score is. Get Real!

Sometimes you have to face truth and realize that the team or the coaching, SUCKS! As a coach, you are there playing many roles to support your team, as a leader, parent and buddy. Not only are you teaching your players to win but, you should be teaching them how to face losing, with out accepting it.

Hell. not only would I make that call but, I have most likely already expanded my strike zone and possibly relaxed calling most balks.

If you can't understand the fact that it is STILL only a game at that level and below and are getting upset with a umpires "necessary" call at that part of the game, then maybe, you are coaching for all the wrong reasons.

It would be great if the world was just Black and White but, it never has been.

Sometimes you're the team with 20 and sometimes you're the team with 3. Comes with the territory. We can deal with it.

A team I was coaching once lost a game in which my team had a 10 run lead with 2 out in the bottom of the last inning.

The LA Dodgers once lost a game to the Phillies when they had a 9 run lead going into the bottom of the 9th.

Stuff happens. We can deal with it.

Well I'm just a guest here so I'm not going to argue with anyone.


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Your questions and opinions are as welcome here as anyone's.

Welcome to the forum. I hope you'll stick around and contribute.

Anyway, back to the OP... that's a 100% HTBT situation; if he's still rolling from his initial momentum and the ball comes out, it's probably not a catch. If he rolls, stops, then raises his glove to show me the ball and it pops out, it's more than likely going to be a catch.

I don't know what level you coached, but this happens on a regular basis in the three sports I officiate:

Football -- A runner near (or slightly past) the sideline is deemed to have stayed in bounds rather than gone OOB on a sweep. White hat is slow to stop (and quick to start) the clock on first downs. Minor encroachment or formation violations are ignored.

Basketball -- Minor violations ignored. Fouls only called when they affect player safety.

Baseball -- The strike zone expands. Any close safe/out decision defaults to "out".

In 30 years, I've rarely had a coach or player from the losing team complain about any of these. It's known as "managing the game."

I'm fully aware that games need to end and sometimes the officials have to help things along.

But "desperately" needing an out rubbed me the wrong way. Make the right call in those situations no matter what to me. If my players are still giving 100% I don't think it is too much to ask of the umpires.

But CT1 I do appreciate your response especially since you were able to do it without making assumptions and casting aspersions about my mental ability to understand the game and coach like jicecone did or assuming I'm berating umpires in a 20-3 game on close calls.


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If you're just curious, then why would you take umbrage at the answer...

You say you're not a coach, so you've not been there. Jice's example happens. More extreme versions of Jice's example happens. Sometimes it's 20-3, and the side with 20 HAS put in his backups ... and the side with 3 (or more commonly zero) can't make an out to save it's life. Even the coach with 20 (30? 40?) wants you to help them out.

Don't get upset that an umpire would do this. NONE of us would do this in a game that's even remotely close.

Actually I said I was a former coach. I coached about 10 years. And I was curious because in a perfect world an umpire never needs an out, desperate or otherwise.

I know it happens doesn't mean I have to like it. Also doesn't mean I'm going to complain about it to the men in blue either. I don't like to see teams get embarrassed either.

The examples you both gave are on the extreme end. And it's not like we can let the clock help us in baseball.

Problem is I've seen it happen in 6-3 games when the umpire is ready to go home. And this example is on the opposite extreme. So NONE of you on this board would do it but doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Appreciate the discussion.







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And since you coached for about 10 years, I'm sure you're aware that "perfect world" is a rare thing.

Perhaps, but I would venture to say that during district play, nearly half of the games are closer to the extreme end than they are to the middle. It's a rare game that it's not apparent to everyone on both sides who's going to win the game by the end of the 2nd inning. We LOVE the close ones - but those are not the norm.

I've come across this occasionally ... that guy doesn't normally work much after that. I think that is far more rare than the blowout that needs to be "managed" though.

Yep, perfect world isn't rare, it's non-existent. LOL.

You should come to central KY, our HS baseball is pretty competitive, good games are more than norm than blowouts. Of course, I'll admit my bias, our district has 5 teams, 3 of which are in state top 10.

I agree with your last statement from HS level on up. See it much more at LL and Babe Ruth levels in our area.


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I'm not saying you haven't seen it, because unfortunately, umpires like this do exist.

But, on the flip side of the coin, consider that there can be a difference between "umpire calling an out because he's ready to go home" and "an umpire calling an out on a judgement call that I as a coach disagree with". The former is annoying, unprofessional, and a disservice to everyone involved; the later is a fundamental aspect of the coach/umpire dynamic. And from a coaches perspective, I imagine that it can be difficult to differentiate between the two.

OK, I'll rephrase: If the game situation dictates that an out is desperately needed, he's out. Otherwise, no catch.

Better?

I can't disagree with you on that. Sometimes what coaches see and what you see can be different. Fortunately the ones who do it because they are ready to go home are a small minority.




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I find it completely repulsive that an umpire would inject himself/herself into the game and affect the outcome. As the game wanes on, you call what you called in the first inning. What was a strike in the 1st inning is a strike now and what was an out in the 1st inning is an out now. Umpires that change their calls and zones with the game, in my opinion, should not be on the field - period.

All that said, HS varsity game in the 6th hour and the bottom of the 17th inning with 2 outs, as I watch the fly ball to F8, I am thinking "Come on, kid, just catch the damn ball!".

I don't think anyone is seriously saying "change how you call it."

Someone might be saying, "change the benefit of the doubt" from "it's safe, until he proves a catch" to "it's a catch, until he proves he drops it."

We all have "benefits of the doubt" ideas and this is a pretty subtle shift.

Key phrase highlighted.