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Visits to pitcher, playing pro rules
Team A turns in line up card with a "straight 9". Team A makes 2nd visit to starting pitcher in same inning. At that point team A manager wants to make a position swap with the pitcher and right fielder allowing starting pitcher to remain in the game and bring the right fielder in to pitch. Official rules of baseball states the pitcher must be removed from the game.
Is the starting pitcher allowed to stay in the game as a position player or is the rule in ORB mean he is no longer eligible to play in that game period? We ruled the pitcher out of the game per ORB. |
If you follow strict OBR, the pitcher is out of the game.
Most organizations either explicitly or implicitly allow the old F1 to remain in the game, but he cannot return to pitch. |
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So seeing only 9 in the lineup and no subs, that might just tell you that this league does not adhere to strict OBR rules. I'll bet that you were incorrect in ruling the pitcher out of the game according to this league. |
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So I agree that the league may not go with strict OBR, because there would be no option to go with either a "straight 9" or a DH. It would have to be one or the other. |
They play strict American League rules in this league but apparently other umpires had had this same situation and allowed the pitcher to remain in the game as a position player.
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IIRC, the rule used to stipulate only the pitcher's "automatic removal." Now it says "automatic removal from the game." Other differences were when a trip concluded (AL-manager crossed foul line; NL-when he left the mound and stepped on the grass); whether pitchers could wear golf gloves on their non-pitching hand (AL-no; NL-yes); and number of lineup copies to give to the umpire at the plate meeting (one league was 3, the other 4 but I don't recall which was which). When doing "summer ball" you could use those differences to your advantage when some smart-aleck manager who said they were playing "National League rules" tried to show you up. They all thought it mean merely "no DH". That is, until they wanted to take clean-up and .490 hitter Johnny off the mound and stick him at short, as they'd been doing all year. "Sorry, skip--National League rules." |
All I can find in a quick look is J/R:
It is a trip when the manager: (e) substitutes a pitcher without a conference. |
I've never umpired a summer league where they didn't allow a pitcher to remain in the game at a different position. He still can't return to pitch.
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Just to be clear: I understand that part of this is defining what is, or isn't, a visit.
But I don't think that some are understanding that a pitcher can move to another defensive position and return later that inning to the mound. Rita |
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Rita |
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It has never come up in any game I have been in, so is interesting situation, but I think coming out of the dugout twice in same inning to conference or change is 2 trips. |
We're over thinking this. Trip 1. "let's go throw strikes" walks next batter on 4 pitches.
Manager comes out. Trip 2. Removes Billy from pitching and puts him out in F8 and F8 comes to pitch. It's the 2nd trip in an inning. For FED that 2nd trip isn't a charged conference b/c he removed Billy from pitching. Am I missing something here? |
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I really don't understand why this is so hard to understand.
This substitution is very similar to a double switch, and for strict OBR that makes it very simple. If the manager (having already made a trip) goes to the mound the pitcher must be removed from the game and a double switch cannot be made. Therefore the pitcher could not do anything else, he must be removed from the game. However double switches are legal, to make one the manager must first go to the plate umpire and inform him of the substitution. He can then go to the mound without a trip being charged. Thus getting back to the original situation, if a trip has already been made in the inning and the manager goes to the mound then the pitcher is done for the day, period. To do anything else the manager must go to the plate umpire first, and in doing so is not charged with a trip, even if after informing the plate umpire of the substitution he goes to the mound. Jasper |
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One trip to the mound and then one trip to PU in the same inning to make a double switch is two trips in my view. |
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For those that say it is, there is a comment to 8.06, a part of which is quoted below: Quote:
Rule 3.06 and its comment are the rules referencing how to make a substitution and the proper way to make a double-switch, I won't quite it here (If you need review, I gave you the rule number, Google it yourself) I hope this clears up my view that going to the umpire is not considered a trip, and thus the substitution in question is legal, if not please give a specific reason and I will do some more research. Jasper |
The only other reference I have found on this subject is in the BRD where an OFF INTERP is offered to CC by phone call in 2000 by FITZPATRICK (PBUC).
"The pitcher is removed from the game if the coach, conferring with the umpire, has already been once to the mound in that half inning." |
Stratref, I have to go along with DG here. Your rule references are correct however, you have drawn your own conclusion as to interpretation.
BRD discusses a coach making a pitcher change after three conferences, without going to the mound. Giving no other limitations on the pitcher, " the pitcher may return to the mound in that contest" (FED) NCAA - if a coach goes to an umpire after a charged trip to the mound in one inning or " having been charged with three trips in a non-extra inning game" that shall constitute an excessive trip. " The pitcher may not return to the mound, even if he stays in the game. OBR - "Point not covered and a official interpretation is offered as stated by DG. If taken literally, "the pitcher is removed from the game". |
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