Visits to pitcher, playing pro rules
 

Team A turns in line up card with a "straight 9". Team A makes 2nd visit to starting pitcher in same inning. At that point team A manager wants to make a position swap with the pitcher and right fielder allowing starting pitcher to remain in the game and bring the right fielder in to pitch. Official rules of baseball states the pitcher must be removed from the game.

Is the starting pitcher allowed to stay in the game as a position player or is the rule in ORB mean he is no longer eligible to play in that game period?

We ruled the pitcher out of the game per ORB.

If you follow strict OBR, the pitcher is out of the game.

Most organizations either explicitly or implicitly allow the old F1 to remain in the game, but he cannot return to pitch.

This is why you should know the rules of the league you are umpiring for. As Brblueump44 stated, many amateur leagues allow the pitcher to remain in the game, just not pitch.

So seeing only 9 in the lineup and no subs, that might just tell you that this league does not adhere to strict OBR rules. I'll bet that you were incorrect in ruling the pitcher out of the game according to this league.

I read "straight 9" as meaning they were not using a DH for the pitcher, which sounds like an option with this league (I do a lot of softball, which uses the DP/FLEX option; when a coach opts not to go with that option, we normally call it a "straight 9").

So I agree that the league may not go with strict OBR, because there would be no option to go with either a "straight 9" or a DH. It would have to be one or the other.

They play strict American League rules in this league but apparently other umpires had had this same situation and allowed the pitcher to remain in the game as a position player.

6.10(b) does not require a DH. You can play straight 9 or 10 w/DH.

If they wish to do it this way, the coach needs to come to YOU first and make the switch, before heading to the mound. The second he went to the mound first, pitcher was done for the day.

I'll bet that this is what they say -- but that they never considered all the ramifications. And, I'll bet that if you asked, they would want the old pitcher to be able to stay in the game.

Are you saying you don't consider it a pitching change due to 2nd trip if HC comes to you first to announce the change?

It's a pitching change. But it's not a visit. F1 is not out of the game.

No such thing. The rules are the same in both leagues. The DH is optional. The Al chooses to use it, the NL chooses to not use it.

Do you have a reference? I was under the impression that this did constitute a visit -- but I'm away from my references at the moment.

Allegedly knowledgeable umpires in my area finally wised up to this fact, but not before I won dozens of free beers.

I, likewise, was under the impression that the manager should only do this verbally from the dugout.

They may be old-timers who haven't kept up. It used to be a league difference--in the American League the pitcher was only required to be removed from the mound and was ineligible to pitch; the NL required removal from the game.

IIRC, the rule used to stipulate only the pitcher's "automatic removal." Now it says "automatic removal from the game."

Other differences were when a trip concluded (AL-manager crossed foul line; NL-when he left the mound and stepped on the grass); whether pitchers could wear golf gloves on their non-pitching hand (AL-no; NL-yes); and number of lineup copies to give to the umpire at the plate meeting (one league was 3, the other 4 but I don't recall which was which).

When doing "summer ball" you could use those differences to your advantage when some smart-aleck manager who said they were playing "National League rules" tried to show you up. They all thought it mean merely "no DH". That is, until they wanted to take clean-up and .490 hitter Johnny off the mound and stick him at short, as they'd been doing all year.

"Sorry, skip--National League rules."

All I can find in a quick look is J/R:

It is a trip when the manager:

(e) substitutes a pitcher without a conference.

I've never umpired a summer league where they didn't allow a pitcher to remain in the game at a different position. He still can't return to pitch.

Just to be clear: I understand that part of this is defining what is, or isn't, a visit.

But I don't think that some are understanding that a pitcher can move to another defensive position and return later that inning to the mound.

Rita

I don't see that being the salient issue here. The reason is that is moot if the pitcher has reached the limit of trips--he cannot pitch again that game. The question is whether he has to leave the game or not.

I think I noted I understood that. But some of the answers sounded like the pitcher had to be removed regardless.

Rita

Wendlestedt says a pitcher changed to another position by a manager from the dugout is not a trip, but there is no mention about situation where manager goes to PU to make the change without visiting the mound, but since he is not in the dugout when he goes to PU to make a change, I consider that a trip for purposes of the 2 trip rule.

It has never come up in any game I have been in, so is interesting situation, but I think coming out of the dugout twice in same inning to conference or change is 2 trips.

We're over thinking this. Trip 1. "let's go throw strikes" walks next batter on 4 pitches.

Manager comes out. Trip 2. Removes Billy from pitching and puts him out in F8 and F8 comes to pitch.

It's the 2nd trip in an inning. For FED that 2nd trip isn't a charged conference b/c he removed Billy from pitching.

Am I missing something here?

Under pure OBR, that isn't allowed. That was the OP's question.

You're missing that this question was not just about OBR, but "strict OBR".

I really don't understand why this is so hard to understand.

This substitution is very similar to a double switch, and for strict OBR that makes it very simple. If the manager (having already made a trip) goes to the mound the pitcher must be removed from the game and a double switch cannot be made.

Therefore the pitcher could not do anything else, he must be removed from the game. However double switches are legal, to make one the manager must first go to the plate umpire and inform him of the substitution. He can then go to the mound without a trip being charged.

Thus getting back to the original situation, if a trip has already been made in the inning and the manager goes to the mound then the pitcher is done for the day, period. To do anything else the manager must go to the plate umpire first, and in doing so is not charged with a trip, even if after informing the plate umpire of the substitution he goes to the mound.

Jasper

I am going to need a rules or interpretation reference for this. The original question was whether a team with 9 players could move the pitcher to another position if the change is made by going to the PU first, after having made a 1st trip earlier. Double switch can me made in the manner, but the pitcher can't move to another position because he is done.

One trip to the mound and then one trip to PU in the same inning to make a double switch is two trips in my view.

First am I correct that the rule in question is 8.06?

Using the rule above especially the section following part d, it appears that a trip to a pitcher requires actually going to the pitcher, going to the plate umpire is not considered a trip.

For those that say it is, there is a comment to 8.06, a part of which is quoted below:
If we think this through this is to mean that informing the umpire of a substitution is not the same thing as a visit. I really don't see how going to the umpire first (prior to going to the mound) can be considered a visit to the mound, the manager has done nothing that can be considered a visit. I would need a rule reference for someone to show me otherwise.
Rule 3.06 and its comment are the rules referencing how to make a substitution and the proper way to make a double-switch, I won't quite it here (If you need review, I gave you the rule number, Google it yourself)

I hope this clears up my view that going to the umpire is not considered a trip, and thus the substitution in question is legal, if not please give a specific reason and I will do some more research.

Jasper

The only other reference I have found on this subject is in the BRD where an OFF INTERP is offered to CC by phone call in 2000 by FITZPATRICK (PBUC).

"The pitcher is removed from the game if the coach, conferring with the umpire, has already been once to the mound in that half inning."

Stratref, I have to go along with DG here. Your rule references are correct however, you have drawn your own conclusion as to interpretation.

BRD discusses a coach making a pitcher change after three conferences, without going to the mound. Giving no other limitations on the pitcher, " the pitcher may return to the mound in that contest" (FED)

NCAA - if a coach goes to an umpire after a charged trip to the mound in one inning or " having been charged with three trips in a non-extra inning game" that shall constitute an excessive trip. " The pitcher may not return to the mound, even if he stays in the game.

OBR - "Point not covered and a official interpretation is offered as stated by DG. If taken literally, "the pitcher is removed from the game".