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-   -   Deception play (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/97936-deception-play.html)

Sgt Siler Wed May 21, 2014 02:29pm

Deception play
 
Little League majors. When I played (100 years ago), when a batter walked, the catcher always threw to F3, the old "hidden ball trick". Is there any rules governing deception now?

Last week I am on bases. Catcher receives pitch, hops up, fakes throw to
3rd, base, pretending to attempt back-pick of R3. F5 leaps in air and then turns around and looks towards the outfield. F6 starts running to the outfield. F7 bends over, looks between his legs, turns and then begins running towards the foul pole. 3rd base coach sees catcher still has the ball and keeps runner on base.

It was very well executed, worthy of an academy award. It faked out both me and PU. Between inning we questioned if there is a rule prohibiting this.

Thanks in advance for your input.

MD Longhorn Wed May 21, 2014 02:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sgt Siler (Post 934604)
Little League majors. When I played (100 years ago), when a batter walked, the catcher always threw to F3, the old "hidden ball trick". Is there any rules governing deception now?

Last week I am on bases. Catcher receives pitch, hops up, fakes throw to
3rd, base, pretending to attempt back-pick of R3. F5 leaps in air and then turns around and looks towards the outfield. F6 starts running to the outfield. F7 bends over, looks between his legs, turns and then begins running towards the foul pole. 3rd base coach sees catcher still has the ball and keeps runner on base.

It was very well executed, worthy of an academy award. It faked out both me and PU. Between inning we questioned if there is a rule prohibiting this.

Thanks in advance for your input.

Not illegal at all. Deception is not illegal. Specific things are illegal (like F1 straddling the rubber without the ball - which nullifies the old hidden ball trick you mentioned, at least to a certain extent) - but nothing in the scenario you give is illegal.

Out Wed May 21, 2014 03:27pm

If deception is the exception rather then the rule...otherwise watch out for game delaying tactics!

bob jenkins Wed May 21, 2014 08:36pm

Just a variation on the Miami play -- perfectly legal.

Manny A Fri May 23, 2014 08:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sgt Siler (Post 934604)
Little League majors. When I played (100 years ago), when a batter walked, the catcher always threw to F3, the old "hidden ball trick". Is there any rules governing deception now?

Last week I am on bases. Catcher receives pitch, hops up, fakes throw to
3rd, base, pretending to attempt back-pick of R3. F5 leaps in air and then turns around and looks towards the outfield. F6 starts running to the outfield. F7 bends over, looks between his legs, turns and then begins running towards the foul pole. 3rd base coach sees catcher still has the ball and keeps runner on base.

It was very well executed, worthy of an academy award. It faked out both me and PU. Between inning we questioned if there is a rule prohibiting this.

Thanks in advance for your input.

Wow, a coach who actually didn't fall for it. What a novelty.

My son's high school team used to pull off the Miami play two or three times each year. You would think the coaches would know it was coming, and yet they still screwed up and had runners easily put out.

There are some forms of deception that are not allowed under certain rule sets. The one that comes to mind is when a runner from first attempts to steal second, the catcher throws the ball up in the air, and the infielders act as if the ball was popped up to fool the runner into returning to first and possibly get thrown out in the process. I believe this is considered obstruction in FED baseball.

Matt Sun May 25, 2014 01:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 934730)
The one that comes to mind is when a runner from first attempts to steal second, the catcher throws the ball up in the air, and the infielders act as if the ball was popped up to fool the runner into returning to first and possibly get thrown out in the process. I believe this is considered obstruction in FED baseball.

Nope.

Manny A Sun May 25, 2014 07:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt (Post 934809)
Nope.

Hmmm, then perhaps I'm reading case play 2.22.1A incorrectly.

Oh, I forgot that in the case play, one of the defensive players yells, "Get back, get back!" Better?

Rich Ives Sun May 25, 2014 08:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 934812)
Hmmm, then perhaps I'm reading case play 2.22.1A incorrectly.

Oh, I forgot that in the case play, one of the defensive players yells, "Get back, get back!" Better?

It's the yelling of "get back" that is the violation I think.

Matt Sun May 25, 2014 10:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Ives (Post 934815)
It's the yelling of "get back" that is the violation I think.

Yep. Mimicking offensive personnel or speaking directly to the runner is where verbal obstruction happens.

Manny A Mon May 26, 2014 07:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt (Post 934817)
Yep. Mimicking offensive personnel or speaking directly to the runner is where verbal obstruction happens.

Well, I find it too nitpicky that yelling, "Get back, get back," is cause for a violation, but yelling, "I got it, I got it!" is perfectly acceptable. There is no play to be made on the thrown ball, so the comment is purely meant to send the runner back.

Matt Mon May 26, 2014 10:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 934859)
Well, I find it too nitpicky that yelling, "Get back, get back," is cause for a violation, but yelling, "I got it, I got it!" is perfectly acceptable. There is no play to be made on the thrown ball, so the comment is purely meant to send the runner back.

Quite the opposite. It provides a clear delineation as to when to call it or not. Otherwise, you get into inconsistent enforcement based on trying to determine the fielder's intent, and at its extreme, any trick play with any sounds would be illegal.

MD Longhorn Tue May 27, 2014 09:08am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 934859)
Well, I find it too nitpicky that yelling, "Get back, get back," is cause for a violation, but yelling, "I got it, I got it!" is perfectly acceptable. There is no play to be made on the thrown ball, so the comment is purely meant to send the runner back.

Luckily, the casebook tells you what to call here, so you can ignore the fact that you, personally, find it too nitpicky. Given that we have this one spelled out for us, we don't have decide on our own whether this is nitpicky or not.

nopachunts Tue May 27, 2014 10:48am

Miami Play
 
Working 2B in a Regional Semi-Final last Friday. Runner on 2B. Defense did a great imitation of the Miami deception play. Runner wanted to go for 3B and the 3BC yelling to stay. It was fun to watch.

Both teams were well coached.


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