I posted this originally in the softball forum but I would also like to know the ruling for baseball.

Please indicate:
OBR
NFHS Rules

A friend posed this play to me and I am not sure I am correct and of course I would like some other thoughts and rulings.

Runner on First, One out. Ball hit to deep center and R1 takes off. CF makes Willie Mays catch. R1 is between 2nd and third when CF fires the ball back to first base. CF's cannon of an arm throws the ball into dead ball territory before R1 can return for the tag up.

What is the Award?

A. Third base after going back to First and re-tagging.

B. Home after going back to First and re-tagging.

OBR-7.05 . . . (g) Two bases when, with no spectators on the playing field, a thrown ball goes into the stands, or into a bench (whether or not the ball rebounds into the field), or over or under or through a field fence, or on a slanting part of the screen above the backstop, or remains in the meshes of a wire screen protecting spectators. The ball is dead. When such wild throw is the first play by an infielder, the umpire, in awarding such bases, shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the ball was pitched; in all other cases the umpire shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the wild throw was made. . .

Since he has to retouch, third is where I would put him.

I've always thought (a) "third" until you asked the question.

OBR
7.05
Each runner including the batter runner may, without liability to be put out, advance...
(g) Two bases when, with no spectators on the playing field, a thrown ball goes into the stands...[snip]... When such wild throw is the first play by an infielder...[snip]...; in all other cases the umpire shall be governed by the <b>position of the runners at the time the wild throw was made;</b>... [emphasis added.]

This would make me think (b) "home" would be the award in OBR, but I do not have access to further interpretations.

The rule 8-3-5 in NFHS, is <s>a bit</s> a lot ambiguous. There is no ruling in the case book, but I think it is stating the award would be (a) "third".

On the softball side - ASA has this exact play in their POE with in essence the same type of ruling that the position of the runner at the realease of the throw is the determining factor.

For ASA they get home. Since the rule does not talk about last legally touched base and tagging up is an appeal play, then the runner has the right to complete his baserunning responsibilites and then accept the awarded bases.

I have always given the runner 3rd but I definitely need to re-evaluate that position. In softball I will change my position on this but in baseball?

We went through this play and its various "what ifs" in depth last year. In OBR, if the runner has initiated a return to 1B, the award is two bases from 1B. If he simply goes to 3B and makes no attempt to tag up at 1B, he is awarded home, but of course the defense will appeal and his run won't count. The tricky play there comes about if the runner leaves a little before the catch and makes his way to 3B. If the umpire awards him only 3B, it is tantamount to announcing to the defense that the runner did not tag up.

In ASA, if the runner was between 2B and 3B when the throw left the fielder's hand, he would be awarded home no matter what (although he would still have to tag up at 1B). But one detail was recently changed: two years ago, the runner had to be between 2B and 1B <i>when the throw entered DBT;</i> if he was still between 3B and 2B, he could not return legally to retouch 1B (as in Fed). Now, however, the runner can retouch as long as he initiates a return before the award is made.

To add to greymule's statement.........

<b>If the runner is on or beyond 2B when the ball goes to DBT</b>, he can not <u>legitimately</u> return to retouch 1B (per Fed rule). If he attempts to return and retouch, you allow him to do so, but his return is considered illegitimate and can later be successfully appealed by the defense.

It's quite possible that the defense, in seeing the runner illegitimately return, may think such illegitimate return is legitimate and fail to appeal. It that occurs, the runner may keep his awarded bases since his illegitimate return was never appealed.


Freix