play at the plate UNC vs. NC State
 

Super close play. PU in position to see the whole thing and makes the correct call. Many others see something else of course. PU handles it well. Did not eject catcher and pitcher who threw down their mask and glove respectively after the call. And he also handled to NC State coach's response in a calm and forceful manner. Good job from my perspective. Response?

Heroic Umpiring
 

At first glance I thought for sure he blew the call, and then I thought for sure the ejection count was going to hit 3 pretty quick. (I forgot for a moment that it was NCAA not MLB)

After replays, great call, great professionalism, great umpiring!

Good positioning by the PU. Good Call.

But..... I understand this is the CWS but players throwing equipment in disagreement to a call is grounds for immediate ejection. In this case it worked out for everyone but if it happens in my game, someone is going to the parking lot.

Thoughts?

Watch and learn.

Learn how to handle a big game? I've had my share of big games and in those games we try to avoid ejections. I understand this is what the PU was doing, but throwing equipment??

Not good.

I believe you answered your own question.

Re: no ejection.
I was thinking that if either or both the players had used profanity or said something personal to the PU, they would have been gone. Later in the game they replayed the conversation between the PU and the NC State coach. The umpire made it clear that any more complaining would end up with ejection. That ended the issue right there. I'd work with that guy any day.

I will never work the CWS, so my opinion isn't really relevant.

I thought the mask spike and the glove spike crossed the line, personally. When I see that I wonder if there actually is anything that would get a player ejected in that game. Drawn line with a bat? Dropping an F-bomb at the umpire?

Like I said, doesn't really matter what I think -- I couldn't hold Burleson's jock.

exactly what I thought at the time -- and I thought initially that at least one of the players had been ejected.

I'll bet it comes up in the videos at the meetings next spring

And I hope someone has the balls to ask the question, "Why weren't they ejected?"

I thought Burleson dealt with the coach extremely well.

That's why he's at the CWS in Omaha (for the 3rd time) and you are at home WATCHING him work the CWS... enough said :eek:

BTW, it was a GREAT call and GREAT positioning... as well as GREAT composure!

Oh, and one more thing, I don't know you're background but if I had to guess, "your share of big games" is slightly ;) different than JB's big games. Try googling his background an you'll see what I mean... incredible experience at almost every level of the game and a great guy as well!

Burley is the complete umpire package for sure!

I really don't think it's "enough said." You make it sound as though because he's there, his way is the right way or the only way. Notice I've never once put down the umpire -- I know his resume. As I've said, I couldn't hold his jock (nor would I really want to - figuratively or literally).

Given the emphasis on sportsmanship at the regional meetings, I would really like to know why *this game* with all the media attention, shouldn't be treated the same way in this regard as a conference game in April. Because of the exposure, shouldn't this be held up as an example of what the NCAA wants?

Matter of fact, I'd like to know how any college umpire could possibly eject a pitcher and a catcher in a D1 game next season if this same thing happened with this video being so readily available and held up as an example.

It's probably like a lot of sports. You eject someone at that level and it is probably the last time you are invited.

With the umpire in question, I doubt it. He's probably one of the top college umpires of all time. Whatever he did would be held up as the right thing, I suspect.

Yes, but --

The problem *I* have with the no-ejection is that younger players who watched this game may now think that they have carte blanche to do the same thing. When they get dumped (as most have said they would do at lower levels), they don't understand why.

They'll figure it out.

Can anyone post video of the play and/or the conversation with the HC?

JJ

Here is the video of the play from NCAA.com...doesn't show much of the conversation with the coach afterward, but does show the reaction of the pitcher and catcher.

CWS Wrap-up: Game 10 - NCAA.com

I can imagine that coach the next time they see each other at a home plate meeting - after he's had a chance to see the film. He'll look at the ground, shuffle his feet, and say quietly, "Good call". And that will be that.

JJ

You need to back off. I never compared myself to JB and my "Big Games" were not at such a high level.

I'm simply saying that throwing equipment should be an immediate ejection. I think this is true at all levels.

JB handled it but that doesn't mean we should tolerate spoiled ballplayers.

I was doing a varsity high school game earlier this year (I was at "B" position) and called a guy safe at first on a pick-off attempt. Caught an earful from 3rd base dugout. The next morning in the small local paper was a perfect still photo of the runner diving back before the tag. Life was good. Visiting coach was very polite to me the next time we met.

First things first: I have not umpired, nor will I likely ever umpire, a CWS.

With that said, I have been selected by our state high school governing body to umpire 8 state championships and I will be working my 5th consecutive American Legion regional this year. While I do have a longer fuse in these big games, the fact remains I have had several ejections at both events; when they eject themselves...they eject themselves, period. If they earn the ejection I will eject them. If as a result of that ejection, the governing/organizing body won't have me back, then so be it. I will have my self-respect as an umpire, however.

F1 and F2 both earned automatic ejections. This isn't MLB where you can give an "equipment violation" to keep them in the game. Those actions are automatic heave-ho's from MiLB down to LL.

Good point - it was a great call but should have been an ejection also. Will be interesting to see how NCAA handles that for next year - bet its going to be a POE or something of that nature.

Thanks
David

Sometimes you have to understand what you are there to do. Umpire a game.

Both of the players threw their equipment out of frustration. Not as much with the umpires call as with the outcome of what they expected the call to be. GOOD players, that work hard in important games have emotions just like everyone else. Sometimes you as an official have to stand back and let that frustration happen, deal with it and move on.

If you can't, then your telling the rest of the world that you don't belong in that situation. You lack the confidence as an official, in controlling a contest at any given moment and you either need to eject someone because of a preconceived idea that it will make you look better, or it is the only way you know, how to handle a situation. You need seasoning and your definetly not ready to handle the game in question.

No he won't. Read this.

Game-changing call - NCAA.com

NC State HC: "The ball just beat him so much that obviously maybe we didn’t block the plate good enough. But with the rules, it says you can’t block home plate."

If he had coached his catcher to block the plate, they would have had an easy out. Good job knowing the rules, coach.

There is certainly some truth to the fact the the leash is a little longer on an immediate emotional reaction to a play like this. Certainly (I think) had one of the players yelled "no way. he was out. You have to see that" and THEN thrown the glove / mask, thre would have been an ejection.

The question though, is whether the "long leash" extends to that much of a display.

You guys make some good points
 

Here's the reality of the play - NCAA POST SEASON (Regional, Super Regional & CWS):

1: Both players would have been ejected in a regular season NCAA game, however, this was not a typical regular season game. At this stage of the season, leashes are much longer (right or wrong) and that's what the NCAA wants. Many of you disagree with this (and I, to a certain extent, feel the same way), BUT if you want to work NCAA post season baseball, especially at D-1 level, you need to understand these things... even if you don't necessarily agree with them.

2: JB could have easily thrown them out and would have been totallhy justified ... HOWEVER, doing so, in this particular situation (ejecting the starting pitcher and catcher in the 4th inning of the CWS) would have drastically impacted the outcome of the game. Its very easy to have a knee jerk reaction and automatically dump both of those players in that situation (and rightfully so) BUT, fair or unfair, that's not necessarily in the "best interest" of THAT game at THAT particular time. (I know that sounds stupid to most of you but that's the reality of NCAA post season games in this day in age)

3. Dumping both of those kids would have been front page news and would have been one of the only things talked about after that game (ie, NC State loses after HP Umpire ejects Starting P & Catcher of game). We all know that's BS but that is how baseball people think and the media would have had a field day with it. One of the common criticisms of officials is that we need to let the "players decide the outcome of the game". Right or wrong, that's exactly what Burley did in this situation and I can guarantee you that he was praised by Gene McCartor and the NCAA "brass" after the game (despite what many umpires feel he should have done)

4. Players (or "student athletes" as they are commonly referred to, lol) often react on emotion and their behavior is held to lower standards because they are 'kids". Officials, on the other hand, are adults that are held to a much higher standard and expected to keep their composure at all times, regardless of how bad players and coaches act. Unfortunately, this also means that in certain rare situations, like the play we're talking about, we are expected to be "more understanding" of how important these games are to the "kids". Yes, I know, its a bunch of BS and an excuse that allows them to act inappropriately and get away with it. Again, this is a sign of the times because if I would have acted in that manner when I played ball growing up, my COACH would have taken me out of the game and my dad would have beat my a$$ when I got home.

5. I could go on and on but while all of you make good points as to why they should have been dumped... ultimately, I think Burleson made the right decision at that particular time, with those particular players involved and with the magnitude of that particular game. Don't get me wrong, he would have also been right to eject them but that decision may have not set very well with the NCAA people... the same one's that make the umpire selections and pay them almost $5,000 to officiate the CWS. Sometime, the saying... "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" is something you follow - even when you don't necessarily agree with some of the direction given.

Well said. That explains a lot. Thanks for posting that.

It wasn't "just" a CWS game. It was the 5th meeting of the year between NC State and UNC, both having won 2 each, fierce rivals in all sports, schools 20 miles apart and in the same conference, and playing an elimination game in the CWS.

Joe Burleson handled this well, and if it is discussed in Spring meetings, that is how it will be described to handle this situation in a game of this magnitude.

The only problem with the way this was "handled" is when we EJ someone for doing the same thing we are the "bad guy". I understand how NCAA wants it handled but it still doesn't make it right.

You handle things the way the boss wants you to handle things. Subordinate 101.

The way Joe Burleson "handled" it will likely earn him another trip to Omaha.

Bad Precedence?
 

Ump 45 brings up a good point because this incident could set a precedent that would not be favorable for umpires in general (or NCAA baseball). Im sure McCartor is aware of this as well and I expect the NCAA will discuss this after the CWS and a Point of Emphasis will be introduced @ the 2014 Regional meetings in January. Although the matter was handled well this time, this type of behavior is not acceptable and a consequence of some type needs to be put in place to address the situation when it comes up in the future

I think Joe did a great job on the play period. I've had the pleasure of working with him many times and like many of us, he takes umpiring very seriously and works to get every aspect of his umpiring done exactly the way it needs to be done. I believe strongly that he called the entire play exactly as the NCAA wants the play officiated during Championship Play. The play will probably be dissected in January, and we will hear that it was done professionally and exactly the way that the NCAA wants it done in the post-season.

One poster already mentioned, had Joe ejected either/both players in rapid fashion, the media would have focused on that rather than any other portion of the contest. Joe got his warning in and the game finished without incident and the teams decided the outcome. The only ones still talking about the play are umpires and few of us have been in Joe's shoes on that stage. Well done by Joe and great overall job by the men representing the best of us this year at the CWS.

True... but not in NCAA. At least ... not if you want to work again.

Hmm.. I wonder how this would have been handled if in the 5th game of the MLB World Series.

I believe they would have been tossed. MLB doesn't have the same reluctance to eject that NCAA seems to.

I disagree to a point. I certainly expect one-half of the players and coaches involved in a game to be frustrated or upset with any close call like this one. I also expect a certain amount of that frustration to come out. But throwing down the mask and glove crosses the line into showing me up and that is not something I am going to allow. Very few others can hear what is said, but the action of throwing the equipment is visible for all to see. That needs to be dealt with. I would have expected an ejection on this play.

With all of that being said, I also understand the "big game, big stage" side of the discussion and calling and managing the game the way your superiors instruct you to. It would certainly be interesting to hear the post game dissection of this play and the reactions to it between the crew and the NCAA observers.

In 99% of the games I work ... likely 99% of the games worked by everyone reading this ... you're right. That's an ejection.

Except if your game is an NCAA game - big game or not. If you insist you would eject over this in an NCAA game, you won't work there long... conversely, if it bothers you enough that your instructions in an NCAA game would be to not eject over this - simply don't work NCAA games.

I respectfully disagree because if this was a regular season NCAA D-I game, the catcher for sure would have been ejected and the pitcher probably would have gone too. The CWS "stage" as well as the position (Starting Pitcher & Catcher) of the players involved had a lot to do with why Burley kept them in THIS particular game.

Go to mlb.com and check out some footage of Robinson Cano getting called out by Rob Drake against the Tigers last fall in the ALCS to assuage your curiosity.

Simply not true. I work NCAA baseball and I would easily eject both players over this.

Just wondering if it's a 3-2 pitch that is called ball four and both players react the same way, does the want NCAA ejection?

If so, that's BS as they are now establishing scenarios to eject and scenarios to pass for the same reaction.

If not, that's just plain BS.

I always make those types of distinctions. Context matters.

That's funny to me as the catcher is the one I'm least likely to eject. He throws his mask immediately and away from the umpire in a way that says to me "I'm frustrated with myself." The pitcher on the other hand turns to the umpire and throws his glove down in the umpires direction which to me is challenging the umpire.

If I'm only dumping one, it's the pitcher.

I was going to ask about that since I'm not a baseball official. Does it matter to anybody that the catcher was walking away from the plate and the umpire when his helmet hits the ground? The pitcher, however, took a couple small steps towards the umpire as he threw his glove and also appeared to be staring him down a bit.

He's certainly not frustrated w/ himself. F2 thinks that the umpire missed the call.

Yes

Is there any video of the play? I haven't had the chance to see it.

Post #19

D'oh...thanks.

NCAA baseball guys.....
IYO, based on what happened on this play; any chance of the Baseball Rules Committee adding something to the rules for 2014 regarding the throwing of equipment by a player? Something short of an EJ, along the lines of what MLB has in their rules (without the fine obviously)?

Yup - already mentioned it on page 3 of the thread

Eastshire: good point - I guess both would go then ;)

I do not think that the rules committee will add anything nor do I think they need to. The NCAA has already made it clear that we are to issue warnings when possible. There is a video of the play that I saw linked on Facebook where you can hear Joe's audio. He immediately warns the players when the pitcher throws his glove and the HC steps in immediately to protect his guys. Did anyone notice who worked the plate in the championship game?

I have no doubt that the coach ran to the PU ump immediately to misdirect the PU attention from his players onto himself (ie protect his players). And I have no doubt he would have preferred to be ejected for arguing than his starting pitcher and catcher. As it turned out the whole situation was expertly handled for a game of this magnitude on this stage and no one was ejected.

I do wonder about this one.

(I'm sorry. I accidentally edited UES's post instead of quoting it -- clearly, I hit the wrong button. Just wanted you to know this was me, not him, and I apologies to UES for being so sloppy. --Rich)

I actually witnessed this one this year in the post-season. The PU issued a warning to the kid and no one ever said a word. The game went on like nothing ever happened and nothing ever escalated. Right or wrong, this time it worked for this umpire. There are lots of ways to cross the finish line, some better than others, but addressing an issue and having it not resurface always works. Warning or ejection or both ways to address the issue, pick the one that works for you so that the problem stops.

In NCAA baseball:

I've ejected immediately for that. I've kept guys in the game just so I could screw them later for that. I've told guys "Either that line disappears, or you do" and had them erase it, whereby they stayed in the game, and had them ignore me--or draw it again--and get ejected.

Context.

It is CWS2013 & Burly
 

Gentlemen,

Here is the deal with the play at the plate. First off, the quality of the call and the positioning are not in question when Burly is working the game. Additionally, the players on the field are centered on the game they are playing...some of you may realize that the intensity of emotion at the CWS is extreme!

Part of the reason Burly is a repeat CC; is not exclusively for his great calls, great enthusiasm on the field and his superb judgement. The big reason he was on this game is his "game management abilities"....

Burly knows how to deal with 19 year old kids who are extremely intense and very competitive....Burly has the personal resolve to realize the 'game" is bigger than his ego...He knows the kids get fired up on a big play....they did not assault Burly or personally offend him...he gave them some rope in a big game and in an intense situation.

I have read many of your comments and most of you need to get this point...the game is bigger than the ego of the umpire....Burly acted as the ultimate mediator....I can assure you the opposing coaches had no issue with the fact that Burly kept the kid in the game....

Traffic cops who give tickets when you are 5 MPH over the limit are an example of poor judgement and a person who fails to see the situation as bigger than their ego or quota...

Burly stood strong...and he acted as we all should try to emulate...a mediator of the game...and not to always abide by the letter of the law.....

Great points Utah-Golf! There is no doubt that Burley handled this situation VERY well and ofcourse, his game management skills are as great as his abilities on the field. No questions there for sure & I get that... however,

Personally, I would like to see the Rules Committee or McCartor address the throwing of equipment issue and come up with some type of directive for umpires on handling this moving forward. Pro ball has an equipment violation as another recorse other than ejecting. A warning worked out great in this case but my fear is that this may set a dangerous precedent. For example:

What would have happened if later in that same game, a UNC player would have slammed his helmet down after a close call at first base? That would have put Steve Mattingly (1st base Umpire) in a difficult position. Does Steve give ANOTHER warning to the UNC player or does he dump him? If he dumps him, UNC's coach will go ballistic that his player was ejected but NC State's player(s) were not. Was Burley's warning just for NC State's team or did it apply to both teams? When this happens in the future, are we supposed to issue OFFICIAL warnings to BOTH teams (like we do w/ suspected bean ball incidents)?

This play has exposed some "grey areas" with warnings and this is why I would like to see the NCAA make a Point of Empahsis or Approved Ruling for some type of punishment for throwing equipment as well as a directive on how this should be handled REGARDLESS if it's a non-conference mid-week, weekend conference series or post-season/CWS game. This type of behavior does NOT look good for the NCAA, especially with TV coverage growing as fast as it is now a days. I feel there needs to be a some type of deterrent in place because warnings may not always be the answer depending the situation, game, stage, etc. Hopefully, this will be addressed at the 2014 Regional Meetings in January so that we, as umpires, are all on the same page when something like this happens in the future. Thoughts anyone...

Joe is famous for saying that some times you just have to umpire. I have a simple question, how many times a season do you have a player throw equipment? So why make an edict for the less than 1%?

Please , if you think that every officials action on the field can be documented, instructed and regulated, then you need robots and not human beings. That umpire was in that game because of his ability to read between the lines of the rule book, and because of his experience. Its a personal trait that some have and some have not. Just like a natural hitter.

Officials will never ALL, be on the same page when it comes to interaction with players, coaches and fans. With as many books, guidelines, interpretations and rules that have been written and re-written over the years, a rookie will handle a game differently than a 10 yr, 20yr or 30 yr veteran. And even then, there will be variation based upon the veterans experience.

I once was transferred to a new location to start up a new office. The VP that brought me there, on the first day told me that he was putting me in that position based upon my experience and performance within the Company to date. He didn't expect me to call him on a daily basis to inquire about how to handle a situation. As long as I stayed within the Guidelines of the Corporation (RULES) it was up to me to set the place up and run the office. If I couldn't handle it then it would look for some else. That was 20 years ago and I still work for the same company 34 years now.

Sometimes you just have to umpire !

JFC...ejections aren't about ego. Traffic tickets aren't about ego.

Also, I'll point out the part in bold above. Who's the one with the ego?

I wish baseball would come up with a non-ejection penalty for this type of thing. In football, its 15 yards; in basketball, its a T. No ejection in either sport*. Obviously, the sports are different, but the SAME behavior for essentially the SAME reason creates 2 very different results. In all sports, you always have the ejection penalty when its needed.

I don't have the answer, but I think some thought should be given to this. Maybe a game penalty later; maybe a loss of a DH for that game or the next.

*I did eject a kid in basketball once for kicking over a water bucket. Made a huge mess and seemed appropriate penalty.

PENALTY: If the infraction was on the defensive team, the pitcher has to throw to the next batter from second base. If the infraction was on the offensive team, the next batter must to hit opposite handed. AR1. If the next batter is a switch hitter, the next non-switch hitter has to do it.

This will never happen, however......

PENALTY: Offending team now has to get 4 outs in the half-inning in which they are on defense, or forfeits an out to the opponent if the incident occurs while they are on offense.

(note - 4th out cannot be attained by virtue of a 4th out on appeal)

In a perfect world? We could just pull out your phone app and check off the applicable rule and penalty. Once you click "ok", the penalty is applied and the game continues without any reference to what just happened.

ORRRRRRRRRRR! How about we learn how to deal with people and quit looking for ways to throw players out of games like any run of the mill, average official can do.

We can deal with and manage people before they do something that gets them ejected. After they commit the ejectable offense, now it becomes "looking for a reason to "keep them in the game.""

Quite frankly, I'm not all that interested in that. And this from a guy who hasn't had an ejection since last May.

In one breath the NCAA shows a video clip of chin music after the previous batter hits a home run and says that it should result in an ejection even though the well-respected umpire issued a warning. In the next breath they imply that if the game is big enough, then we need to let it go. My question: Does this only apply to Omaha? How about a rivalry weekend? Conference clinching game? Any game in the conference tournament? Any game in the regional? Super Regional? Or are those games not big enough...so if you do EJ, then you'll never see that level of ball again? So how does one who aspires to get to "the next level" decide when to enforce the rules? Or when to bend them?

Throwing at hitters and throwing masks and gloves into the ground are substantively different. Throwing at hitters is a safety issue and is consistent with the other safety rules in the NCAA, eg, force-play-slide rule, one on-deck hitter, the safety triangle, malicious contact, etc.

I agree Rich, and I am certainly not going to look for a reason to "keep them in the game." either.

However, it seems that many here have expressed the need for every officials action or reaction to every play, be put in writing. That may work well for the upcoming official because they will know exactly what to do, to get to the top game but, it is unrealistic and not always going to get you there anyway.

Just as it happened in this scenario, sometimes just common sense and experience has to be applied. Just using the words, that are written in between the printed lines of the documented rules.